Friday, November 20, 2009

Art Haron vs The Lipas Man

Insider gets democratic over Dr M's remarks. Lawyer Art Haron's critic of Dr Mahathir's views on democracy has been answered by fellow columnist at The Malaysian Insider. Read Sinatra Z - An Answer, here. Art's piece was published in MI here but Zaidel aka Sinatra's response hasn't been published by the online news portal.

Sinatra's pro-M stance shines through like a crazy diamond. His concluding paras:
"There is such a thing as too much democracy, look at Pakistan, apart from cricket the national's favourite past time is politics and it is dominated by lawyers, look how screwed up it gets.

"On the other hand, China is being ruled by a group of Engineers and they are flying high.

"Dr M is a lousy philosopher yes I agree, and that's why people like him because Philosophers will only talk and do very little while technocrats (like Doctors) do more and talk less. Philosopher ini macam Anwar Ibrahim".
I don't think the Malaysian Insider would publish such a piece. Good try, though, Z. I do agree with you (and Dr M). We don't need to look so far, just across the Causeway. We are way more democratic than Singapore, and look at how many of us idolize the Republic for its progress and wealth. Given the choice, however, I'd stay put here, Z.

And what was it that Dr M say?

India too democratic, says former Malaysian PM
Herald Globe
Tuesday 17th November, 2009

Former Malaysian prime minister Mahathir Mohamad has singled out India as an Asian country that has 'made the mistake of being too democratic' and compared it unfavourably with China's authoritarian regime.

Mahathir said: 'India, of course, will grow, but more slowly than China. It has the numbers but is not making use of them well.'

He identified China, Japan, South Korea, Taiwan and, 'to a lesser extent', India as the countries which would lead the Asian charge, New Straits Times said Tuesday.

Mahathir, who ruled Malaysia for over two decades, told a seminar on Asia and 21st century that people 'do not understand the limits of democracy'.

'Democracy can be a hindrance to progress because you spend so much time politicking that you don't have time to develop your country.

'In China, there's not much politics. So, they can spend more time developing their country.'

He blamed the West for making democracy and freedom the cornerstone of progress.

It is the West's focus on democracy, civil rights and individual liberties - attributes flaunted by Western governments - that Mahathir identified as being the reason behind 'its economic flaccidity'.

'The British believe a lot in so-called freedom. Their workers must be allowed to go on strike all the time. So, they have the problem of being a very unproductive population.

'They must be free of everything. When you do that, productivity will drop. When productivity drops, you cannot compete.'

Talking about Asia, Mahathir ruled out a role for 'strife-torn' West Asia.

'They are not going to make much progress, unfortunately. They are not going to contribute to the Asia of the 21st century. But it doesn't matter because Asia is such a big place,' Mahathir said.

East Asia's emerging economic dominance over the West is due to its productivity and strong work ethic, he said.

However, the former premier warned of the increasing trend among young Asians to ape Western culture.

'Today, there are places in Tokyo where you see young people with multi-coloured hair. They look like Red Indians. These are the young Japanese who have adopted Western values,' said the octogenarian who continues to draw crowds six years after he quit office.

'They want to be free and be able to change the place they work, hop from one place to another and take marijuana. This is what the Europeans do. This is progress for those young people.'


  1. Brunt Council12:50 pm

    All lawyers are liars and trouble makers!

    We need less of them.

  2. Wow.. I fall in love every time Dr M speaks. Yes, lawyers generally don't have anything beneficial to do except cheating people's money, legally.

  3. Common Sense speak by Dr Mahathir and great comment by Sinatra Z. Yes we should have less of democracy and lesser politicking so that our energies can be used to further propel our country forward.

    In Singapore the Bar is with the Government. So there are less lawyers politicking and picking fight with the Singapore Government thanks to LKY of course. Alas, in Malaysia the Bar Council is almost a political organisation leaning to not very Pro Government in the name of democracy. So Brunt Council I think I would agree with you also.

  4. Anonymous3:30 pm

    Art Harun is a total and completely stupid. MI is only published the articles from the stupid writers. Well wat to do becoz they have Kalimutu as their pay master.

    I read Art Harun articles but unfortunately his writing is just his stupid assumption, no value, less facts and full of rubbish. These lawyers are full of bullshit and their vision is to turn our country to be ape like Pakistan. Eg. Karpal singh, farish noor, harris ibrahim, Lim kit siang, Zaid Ibrahim, BAR are mostly 70% brain useless. Even worst these lawyer are defender of criminal, thats why most of murdered case are walk free from the death sentences.

  5. Anonymous3:58 pm

    After all the negativity Art Harun list of Dr.M's legacy, i can't help but think of his smiling face on MI.

    Now that smiling face could be contributed to:

    A: He's hate for Dr.M
    B: The orgasmic ArtyFarty feeling of another article written that he thinks makes him more credible to the masses.
    C: Despite Malaysia being a Failed and Chaotic nation (what he says) he could still earn a living and run around this country with complete freedom.
    D: Anwar just tickled his balls congratulating him on another well written 'piece de shit'.


  6. Anonymous4:15 pm

    you call sinatra's piece a good one?? hahahahaha thats funny. but this is coming from someone who actually hasnt written anything substantial himself, so there is reason to forgive you, especially with your biased view of matters. by the way, half your links dont work, as usual...

  7. Anonymous5:02 pm

    R - Apparently Art has touched a nerve with Dr M's fans including his daughter.......

    How about a follow up post from you after the 2nd episode is aired....

    Looking forward!


  8. Anonymous5:14 pm

    Agree with Brunt ni mcm nyamuk


  9. Rocky,

    Lawyers like Art Harun don't care about the little people and their problems, it is beneath them, they want to pontificate 'big' issues like democracy, freedom of speech etc

    economic progress and money are petty things, they will not sully their high and mighty minds with such low brow concerns

  10. Anonymous6:51 pm

    Better that you stay in M'sia, in Spore they may not even offer you
    a reporter's post


  11. tony leung6:59 pm

    jangan percaya la kalau ada org kata nak jadi lawyer ni susah. janji boleh kelentong je. yang ramainya tu buat external degree programme je. satu tahun empat subject selama tiga tahun. lepas tu exam jawap empat soalan dari lapan yg diberi untuk tiap subject. goreng je la. janji hafal case law dengan statute, lepas tu apply je mana yg patut. dah dapat degree buat CLP. susah sikit tapi buat dua tiga kali gerenti lepas dan dah boleh buat chambering. lepas tu berlagak la macam org yg paling pandai dalam dunia. tu lah kebanyakan lawyer kat malaysia ni. aku tau la, sebab aku macam dia org ni juga...hehehehe

  12. Anonymous7:53 pm

    I fully support what Dr. M said. I have been saying the same things for years. Because of this, the quarrelsome gene has gotten into the Indian DNA. Remember what people say about three Indians will form a political party. There is some truth in this.

  13. Anonymous8:30 pm

    I think it would unfair to the Indian citizens for us to sit here and pass judgement. The truth right now if we are advising India, we are demonstrating a level of "bodoh sombong" that makes look stupid not only to our citizens who actually know a lot more about the world economy, but to the international businessmen who read about this.

    During the periods of 1981-2003, India's GDP grew at an average of 5%, so perhaps that is why Tun Dr Mahathir was making his statement, based on outdated data. Between 2003 to 2008, India's GDP doubled from $600 b to $1,200 billion, or an average growth of 15%**.

    Furthermore, the growth does not seem to be levelling off anytime soon, for this year, growth is estimated at 6-7%, whilst we will get a -3% growth. From 2000-2009, the cummalative FDI inflow to India was over $100 billion. Our Q3 growth is stil -2%

    So to paint India, which together with Brazil, Russia and China, form the BRIC cartel, as a country with dominated by poor farmers once again belies the total lack of knowledge that characterizes the supporters of Tun Dr Mahathir.

    **(based on current US dollar:Rupee exchange rate, data biased upwards due to US dollar depreciation)

  14. NoMalayApologist8:41 pm

    Yes, Mahathir's style of leadership brought us into the modern world, but if you think about, it's also Mahathir's fault for the way our country is in right now. He took away many of our freedoms.
    He can bash the west of their "liberties" all he wants...but at least in countries where you get all these coloured haired teenagers, you can question your leaders....
    I'd tolerate wierdo's and slackers in the populace any day rather than deaf and mute politicians in the corridors of power

  15. Anonymous9:23 pm

    how come you dont publish the PI Bala's interview here

  16. Anonymous10:00 pm

    It is true. There's simply too much petty politics, so much so, nothing gets done. Usually it is about 'he's got more than me' issues or harping on old stories, trying to correct the past.

    There is no effort to plan for the future except to sulk over past mistakes.

    No one's interested in reducing imports, building better infrastructure, reducing traffic jams, food shortage but the moment a leader is seen at a karaoke outlet, bang..... they go berserk.

    There's always two sides of a coin, but people seem to see only one side.

    Perhaps we should bring Mahathir back as there has not been any new developments since he left.

    Of course they blame him for the Penang Bridge, KLIA, Putrajaya etc but look who's racing to occupy Putrajaya today? And who wants a second bridge?

    I say go to hell with the stupid opposers of progress. They must understand that progress cannot be reversed.

    Najib must take control and jail the anti-progress groups before they climb over his head. Ignore the stupid democratic slogan shouters, who themselves realise that democracy is tearing them apart.


  17. Anonymous10:02 pm

    After reading my conclusion is:

    - some ppl need to be more patient. commenting on m.i. has to be read by editors, SinatraZ comment has been posted.

    - Art Harun's article got many Mahdey fanboys throwin hissy fits. brilliant!

    - Sinatra Z need to read more on Soviet history:

    -... and also on Japan's history

    Font Futura

  18. Dr M is partly right, but whether this is sustainable in the long run is highly debatable. That is less democracy and more command and control economy.

    Pakistan is a wrong example…due to strong theological influence in politics.

    Despite India having too much democracy as Dr M claimed, its growth rate is far superior then most undemocratic countries except China.

    There is a great danger that once people have the economic means there would demand rights to speak freely. This is fundamental human behavior.

    Democracy and freedom is the cornerstone of long term economic and social progress.

  19. Anonymous11:10 pm

    Very nice catatan by the lipas.

    True, our country is screwed up (remember, the country had wasted RM 20 billions per annum for the last 15 years due to leakages - Morgan Stanley's) because one, due to too many politcians are lawyers and two, too many corporate leaders are accountant.
    These 2 groups of people are the worst kind becos they dont know how to create value but very good at manipulating laws and accounts!!


  20. Anonymous11:31 pm

    Lawyers are stupid.
    Case in point Manoharan via Syamsul Yunos.
    What has Art Harun done for Rakyat Malaysia?
    Probably nothing.
    Maybe overcharge the Rakyat for his signature on house purchases.
    Or get his business client to enter into more litigation to get more charges.
    Lawyers don't add value to Rakyat's life.
    They are there because of the bureaucracy requirements.

    Ms.Eu Mei Fatt

  21. Anonymous11:54 pm

    Dalam dunia ni., apa sahaja tak boleh lebih-lebih, kalau air telalu banyak gula, manis sangat tak terminum juga, kalau tak letak gula, tawar tak sedap pula.

    Dalam bab demokrasi pun samalah nampaknya, lebih sangat akhirnya nak beli kereta sebiji sampai kos buka tender boleh beli sebiji kereta pun tak guna juga.

    Mengenai penguam, ya, setuju, peguam memang "SUCK!!!", terutama yang bernama gobin suck deo. Bayangkan dalam hari yang sama dia boleh melindungi perogol, dalam masa yang sama juga dia bercakap pasal keadilan. Kalau kita campur antara dua kes itu kita dapat simpulkan sebagai "keadilan adalah melindungi perogol dari di hukum" ... suck!!


  22. Anonymous12:12 am

    The US sends its army all over the wold to shed the blood of non white people. They unashamedly use democracy as an excuse to shed human blood.

    The fact that they have been doing this without end for over 150 years now (US Marines first went ashore to kill Indonesians in the 19th century) speaks a lot about their democracy as well as the people who blindly support such demoracy.

    Yet as Dr M has said, democracy is still the best option open to us.

    My question however is about the US Army. Since WW2, the US Army sheds the blood of non white people all over the world to save demoracy.

    But is the US Army democractic? What happens if a US Army soldier says 'I joined the US Army to defend my country but I dont want to go to Afghanistan and shed the blood of non white people there'?

    The soldier will be court martialled and jailed. To save democracy all over the world the US Army cannot allow any democracy in its ranks. Otherwise they cannot invade other countries to shed the blood of non white people in their eforts to save democracy.

    p.s. I am not a lawyer ah.

    Syed Akbar Ali.

  23. Anonymous12:22 am

    Today's Star says that of the 1.0 billion people in India, 600 million dont have toilets in their houses. They shit in the sreet, behind bushes and by the beach. Half of Mumbai's population shits outside the house - usually hovels that they live in. This happens everyday. The Star says everyday, 5000 children under five years old die in India because of diseases related to sanitation and human excrement. When he was PM, the late Rajiv Ghandi was criticised by Indian media for wearing fisherman's rubber boots when he walked around Mumbai.

    India is a shit hole. India is full of shit. India is a shit house. India is shit. Shit is India. Shit is in India. India is IN deep shit. India IS deep in shit. Shit is deep in India.

    Hj Hoe

  24. Anonymous1:08 am

    Syed Akbar Ali,
    In World War II, the United States of America shed a lot of blood of white Germans. The United States of America sent their young men and women half way across the Pacific to defeat the Imperial Japanese Army who occupied Malaysia. Remember who won Malaya the freedom from the brutality of the Japanese Imperial Army? It was the United States of America.

    I hate it when people dare attack the USA on some pathetic trumped up story! It is through them and that they developed the Blog , and gave for free, we can be entertained with your 2 cent opinion!

    America is a beacon of hope and light to the rest of the under developed world that has shone forth for the last 2 centuries, as a tribute to what man can do if they are willing to work hard and not be fooled by the Bourgeoisie culture of inbred stupidity.

  25. Anonymous6:31 am


    What a name!! Yeah, it connotes an airy fairy kinda brain, all shapes and colours in a one dimensional format

    but no REAL substance ...

  26. Anonymous6:45 am

    Arty Farty should walk the talk

    His supporters are asking him to be the Prime Minister

    Then we can start picking on his minute errors

    and poking on his conscience

  27. NoMalayApologist9:25 am

    I find it ironic that Mahathir is strongly opposed to war, yet preserved during his rule, laws passed under state of Emergency. Why are our freedoms restricted as if we are at war?

  28. While I agree that Tun Dr.M catapaulted the country into instant "overnight" success it also came with a high price.

    The first three Prime Ministers were all ex barristers. All three understood the rule of law and never interfered with the judiciary. The rot in the judiciary really began during Dr.Mahathir's time.

    The decline in foriegn investments in Malaysia in recent times can be partly attributed to the investors lack of confidence in the integrity of the judicial system.

    During his tenure, Dr.Mahathir also stifled free press and civil society which ensures accountability of institutions and to act as their effective checks and balances.

    Economic progress will not depend so much on the trappings of democracy but whether the nation's instutitions are strong and solid enough to deliver.

  29. Anonymous10:31 am

    I think what Dr Mahathir meant was there is a difference between formal democracy and real democracy. The test is whether there is real democracy. Formal procedures worshsiped by the West and Mr Anwar do not guarantee prosperity. As Ibn Khaldun discovered a long time ago, its asabiya or cohesion which brings prosperity, not formal proclamations.

    Those who adopt a scientific view like Ibn Khaldun tend to recognise the difference because they use outcome measures to test the concept of democracy.

    Philosophers do not have such clarity of thinking or objectivity. Scientists by definition should be objective, and the better ones display great genius. Hence, our enthralment with Dr Mahathir and Hujintao and not a Anwar, or a Lee Kuan Yew.


  30. Anonymous10:48 am


    there is thing we need to take note here. no offense to lawyer, but when i comes to select our MP, please as much as possible avoid lawyers. they are not leaders. we need engineer, doctors, scientist, architect, etc to lead us but not lawyer.

  31. Anonymous11:51 am


    Compare to Singapore which basically wiped out corruption. Guess what Dr M. did which is wiped our judiciary, PDRM and civil services independents. Usual BN folks that only tell half truth.


  32. animah casting pearls5:03 pm

    To those who dislike lawyers and Art, aren't you glad that you have the right to voice your intelligent, enlightening, deep and thought provoking views?

  33. Anonymous8:37 pm

    I have to agree with Wenger J Khairy. India has only recently emerged as a potent force on the world scene thanks in part to the Congress Party and Manmohan Singh.

    India might be a nation of farmers, but it is also a nation producing as well exporting some of the world's top talent through its IIT's and IIM's. This is where China has lost out due to rigid controls by their government of universities which inhibits original thought.

    In terms of numbers, China definitely produces more bankers, engineers etc but China is found wanting when it comes to achieving that final technological leap which their Japanese cousins and now the Indians have managed to do.

    One does not need autocracy, just a disciplined mind set to see a nation succeed.

    A commentator also mentioned about how Pakistan in summary is a political basket case. Indeed it is. But that is not due to democracy but simply due corruption. Ali Jinnah's daugher once commented that her father would have probably changed his mind about breaking away from India and seeking a separate homeland for muslims if he had lived to see how Pakistan would have turned out. India is just as political as Pakistan but has succeeded in finding its private sector niche in technology etc.

    In summary, things can only get better for India. Malaysia on the other hand is still struggling to establish its equivalent of the IITs and IIMs.


  34. NoMalayApologist9:28 pm

    Are you guys serious about not needing lawyers?..out of sight, out of mind...
    You'll only cry for them when you are in a legal jam..
    Statements saying lawyers are evil are just propagating stereotypes...It shows that the only lawyers you know are from TV.
    True...many are not statesmen who bend the destiny of the nation...but they are a policemen, bankers, postmen, rubbish bin collectors.
    And, as a citizen of a "free" country...they should have every right to state their opinion, just as we are entitled to it, no matter what work he does

  35. The Simple man12:26 am

    Dr. M whack India because he is ashame of his Indian origins. True la he nyanyok already.

    Yes la maybe he brought mordenisation to malaysia but with no proper vision and gorvenance. If the whole of KL or Malaysia can be develope, they will do it for the sake of money. Look at Naza's project in TTDI. Another green lung going. The BN Govt under him till now same, They just rape the land. It's ok to them bcoz they've Rocky to spin for them.

    How blind we get?!!!

  36. Anonymous3:02 am

    Agree with NoMalayApologist,

    Lawyers are just like Rubbish Collectors.

    Nothing More..Noting Less.

    Their opinion is as much value as every rubbish collector has an ars**ole.

    Ms. Eu Mei Fatt

  37. Anonymous11:33 am

    malakies donkies inbreedie like you does not qualify for Singapore Your inbreeding race is bodohland's problem. you take away all those chinkies(as all beloved bro, fellow inbreeds - warrior 231 aka donkie 1, donkie II ..... call them) contributing to bodohland economy, you are worse than PAkiland

    warrior 123

  38. Anonymous5:55 pm

    Daryl @ 11:51 AM says ...

    "Compare to Singapore which basically wiped out corruption. Guess what Dr M. did which is wiped our judiciary, PDRM and civil services independents. Usual BN folks that only tell half truth".

    This is a clear sample of the BRAINWASHABLE types of PR supporters.

  39. skilgannon10664:56 pm

    Seems to me that Tun Dr Mahathir (TDM) left Singapore out of his list of "favoured" countries?

    Why? I thot that he and a certain LKY had some things in common? Or not.

    Just today I read that the Singapore private sector have invested S$1.1 billion (RM2.64 billion) in 178 manufacturing projects in Iskandar Malaysia (according to the Spore National Development Minister in reply to a question raised in the Spore Parliament).

    How come TDM doesn't want to talk about this? The statistics on Iskandar Malaysia should be readily available to him.

    In any case, this is what Indian PM Manmohan Singh said in his speech to the Council on Foreign Relations, a US think-tank, during his current visit to the US:

    "There is no doubt that the Chinese growth performance is superior to India's. But I always believe there are other values which are more important than the grown of the gross domestic product (GDP).

    "I think respect for fundamental human rights, the rule of law, respect for multi-cultural, multi-ethnic, multi-religious rights...these have values also. There are several dimensions of human freedom which are not always caught up the numbers with regard to the GDP.

    "So even though India's performance with regard to the GDP might not be as good as China's, certainly I would not like to choose the Chinese path. I would prefer to stick to the Indian path."

    What would TDM say in response to the above?

    What would his reaction be to "trigger phrases" such as:

    - "respect for fundamental human rights"?
    - "the rule of law"?
    - "respect for multi-cultural, multi-ethnic, multi-religious rights"?

    It was also reported that the Indian PM took a swipe at China by saying that reforms undertaken by democratic societies were more effective and durable than those "introduced by the writ of a ruling group in a non-democratic set-up" (as reported in the Spore Straits Times, Nov 25).

    That should put paid to some of the arguments raised by certain "nationalists" in our midst.

  40. Anonymous6:24 pm


    i'm sure you know that the divide between the rich and the poor in india is really wide

    perhaps you might want to expound another theory on why they still practise the caste system

    in your own words "respect for fundamental human rights, the rule of law, respect for multi-cultural, multi-ethnic, multi-religious rights"

    how about basic respect for human life irregardless of which caste you are born into

    just imagine skillgannon1066 is born as an "untouchable"