Tuesday, December 11, 2007

Laughing stock

When lawyers pay no heed to the Attorney-General

by Present Point Power

Peaceful assembly or walk may not be a serious offence but when the 9 were charged on Monday, the AG Gani Patail (pic) said: “the prosecution will prove that their actions may lead to public disorder and more unlawful assemblies."
At this juncture, laughter broke out in the courtroom, which was packed mostly with lawyers, prompting Gani to tell the court that this was no laughing matter as it involved national security. [Eight in People's Freedom Walk claim trial, Bernama].

More details
Go H E R E
Plus a 3.24min Video Clip (with Clips within Clip) on the police aborted Peace Walk
Thank you for the posting and pics/clips, Multimid.

When I told a former High Court judge over coffee yesterday that Gani had wanted bail denied for the lawyers, he shook his head repeatedly. "What's going on, Rocky?"
Good question. I thought the A-G should be focusing on more pressing issues, like Altantuya, Nurin, etc.
The judge was also shocked to learn of the names of the lawyers arrested as most of them are known human rights lawyers, including Edmund Bon, the Bar Council's chairperson for Human Rights.
And yesterday, if you didn't know, was World Human Rights Day!


  1. Anonymous11:49 am

    "......the AG Gani Patail (pic) said: “the prosecution will prove that their actions may lead to public disorder and more unlawful assemblies."


    Is he serious, this third class "lawyer"?

    And the frightening part is, the judge concurred.

    Oh my! Where have we gotten ourselves into?

    No wonder our legal system is in a mess, a laughing stock in the eyes of the world.

  2. Rocky,

    Not only the Judiciary is in turmoil, even the Attorney-general is now confused and senile.

  3. Anonymous12:09 pm

    Yeah, what is going on Rocky? The situation is like our national football team, once, it was one of the strongest in Asia, now no national teams wanna play with our national team, why, coz jatuh standard.

  4. Are you sure it was Human Rights day and not "You have the right to remain silent. Anything you say can and will be used against you in a court of law. You have the right to be speak to an attorney, and to have an attorney present during any questioning. If you cannot afford a lawyer, one will be provided for you at government expense." DAY ? Shit is cant even get a good lawyer these days coz most of them are in jail... sigh !

  5. This lately I suffer from some kind of psychological illness. Am I supposed to feel sad or to laugh at the whole affair?

    Gosh, is Abdullah Badawi that stupid? I'm impressed with the effort he needed to keep a serious look in public. You know, the "I mean business" kind of look? I just can't help wondering how he managed to pull off that kind of look whenever I saw his picture, since he didn't have much to show below that thick skull of his.

    I remembered the interview that Gani gave to NST about the incompetence of the prosecution. It was then I first learnt his true colours, and to learn the degree of his intelligence, well, not that he has one. Not surprising that he picked up these high-profile cases for himself to make up for whatever that is lacking in his department.

    Gosh, the BN government seriously needs competent people on the government. Nazri is good enough an entertainment for all of us here.

  6. Anonymous12:52 pm

    I think the Bar Council should consider revoking Gani and Najri's memberships (if they are members) for bringing the reputation of us lawyer into disrepute!

  7. Anonymous12:53 pm

    AG, whats going on man. Lawyers are laughing at you in court. Don't you feel shame? How about your family, your children, don't they feel shamed and disgraced. I feel ashamed by your act, for being Malaysian now. Just like our PM,DPM and the likes have shamed us endlessly.

  8. Anonymous12:58 pm

    will the issuing of permits be privatised? i can see potential already, like:

    - requiring permits at all sports events
    - requiring weekly permits for worship in mosques, churches, temples etc
    - dll gathering melebihi ampat urang.

    all because when many come together, it can be proven that this *may* lead to public disorder.

  9. Anonymous1:24 pm

    this buggers are really sick man. There are bigger issues to face and here the AG is talking nonsense. The peaceful walk will bring the country down..come on.

    Other serious issues they look the other way or close one eye. Scared of their own shadows la.

    I hope the judge will throw all these cases out and tell AG to spend his time in a more effective manner like prosecuting real criminals.

  10. Anonymous1:43 pm

    the more they defy the rakyat, the more the rakyat hate them! Very foolish!

  11. Anonymous1:52 pm

    the fact about this administration, certain individual are placed there not for their intelligence but rather for their stupidity / incompetencies.

    and to keep the rakyat in perpetual amusement.

    and this guy could be one of those many jackasses.

  12. Anonymous1:56 pm

    can't all the righteous lawyers just drop their cases for 1 month and put the entire system to a halt?

    If the AG and DG and whatever G can decide who is guilty and not, shouldnt it be better for all? At least with the biggest or 2nd biggest court in the world, we can speed things up.

  13. Anonymous1:57 pm

    Yea yea, criminals and rapist still running free but they think this is the biggest threat! Bias betul eh!

  14. Anonymous2:07 pm

    "When clown talks, what do the audience do!!!!!"

    LAUGH loudly......

  15. Rocky, you are your usual chheky self here. Of course Gani will not spend time over the Altantuya saga...his boys will follow "instructions"...Gani I am told were given instructions, go get the guys who are biting us in the right place. Nurin's case.....what case...no case because Musa's boys have been told (running dogs dont think, they must be told, instructed) to take care of street walkers - ooppps daytime street walkers.

  16. Anonymous2:53 pm

    Where are we going? Is the idiot FIL steering this nation towards some rocks where we'll crash and sink? But not together bcos some of them "u-know-who" have got their own safety boats (Probably named Perth or something) to go to whilst the very people paying for their safety boats are left to sink and die......
    I'm sooooooo angry that these monkeys deem a group of yuppy lawyers more dangerous than rapists, muderers and robbers (and of course not forgetting violent SILs demonstrating outside the US embassy)

  17. Yes, it is all so amusing for those who attended the court who were free to return and have a warm meal in the comfort of their homes and families.

    I'm wondering if it was funny for the fellow who had to sleep on the cold cement floor of the cell being served prison food?

    Those stupid lawyers at the gallery were very selfish. Instead of supporting their colleague/s they are actually making it worse for him/them by ridiculing the system. Being dumb lawyers, I guess they don't bother to check how the system works behind bars.

  18. Gani is just illuminating the reputation of lawyers. i.e.crooks of the highest order.

    If that is their reputation, why moan when it is being advertised? I've never looked upon lawyers as upstanding citizens of the world. Gani's action isn't making it any different than the description I have of lawyers.

  19. Anonymous3:27 pm

    Just a thought...does that mean the public holiday gatherings by foreigners at KLCC and other public places will also be deemed illegal unless a permits is given?
    How can it be that there's so many versions of the law, applicable for different groups of people?

  20. Anonymous3:52 pm

    Thanks for the joke, Gani. Now you know what the legal fraternity and the general public think of you.

    Say, where did you read your law again?

  21. Anonymous4:22 pm

    erm...i guess most of you guys failed to grasp the importance of this matter in the eyes of BN and the clan. See, these brave people who marched and got arrested are the lots going against the gomen's decree. In the eyes of the BN clan, these are also the same people threatening their position. As compare to Nurin's case, mat rempits and so on....well, these are issues which concerns the rakyat..and do you think the gomen is interest? All they care about is how long they can remain in power and how deep they are able to fill their pockets!

    So, aren't these pressing enough to have the AG himself to prosecute?

  22. So the AAB administration sents their top prosecution bloke to do their 'dirty job' at the courts.

    Isn't the AG the same guy who submitted a 'blog-derived' photo at the Hague as evidence of Malaysia's sovereign control of PBP? Is he now seeking redemption at the local courts for making that highly publicised international 'doo-doo'?

    He'd do better by prosecuting the culprit(s) who leaked out the Nurin post-mortem photos which his comrade-in arms, the IGP, promised to produce in court when he (the IGP) announced on 3/11/07 that the RMP have identified the suspect(s). The NST report alluded to involvement of police personnel, therefore, I presume that's why there's no further action taken (yet) after 38 days.

    Hence, if the lawyers/others laughed in court at the AG, I'm certain it was cynically done with a 'wink-wink, nudge-nudge' gesture apart from saying "Yeah, right. More BS".

  23. The legal fraternity in Malaysia is a circus. From malaysian lawyers all the way up to the top Judge, so lawyers, please don't think you people are better off in standing than others in the branch of the legal and judiciary. you're all clowns.

    As far as where they read law is concerned, I'm not sure, but I'm pretty sure they were called to the Bar at the Royal Selangor Club, or was it the Toddy Club?

  24. Angry taxpayer,

    These yuppy lawyers are the ones defending rapists, murderers and robbers for a fee...and you're implying they are better then the people they are defending?

  25. Anonymous8:31 pm

    Lawyers behaving like hooligans...what else is new?

  26. Anonymous11:02 pm

    Gani patail was not the AG of Malaysia. He is just an offrice boy taking instructions from Khairy and Kalimullah.

    He should spend his time looking into the V K Lingam's corrupt practices involving the judges includign a sitting judge, Datuk Low Hop Bing. Gani got his priority all wrong.

    Judges are no longer judges. They allowed themselve to be prostituted by VK Lingam. They even succumb to a handphone with extra battery. Low Hop Bing (Ct of appeal judge)left his empty bag in VK lingam car and the bag was return to Low Hop Bing wiht something inside and it had to be delivered at night.

    Gani, wake up lah! we are not as stupid as the PM. So please do not fool us. Just take actions against the corrutped judges for the sake of Malaysia. These corrupted judges should be put in Sungai Buloh prison and the keys thrown away.

    Malaysians aren't you not sick of the judiciary and Gani Patail.

  27. Anonymous11:05 pm

    Why was Lim Kit Siang and the DAP were so quiet aboutthe corrupted judiciary. Karpal Singh was also very wuaiet about AHmad Fiaruz. Of course, we knwo that Ahmad Fairuz, the former CJ, was a clsoe friend of Karpal Singh.

    SO DAP leaders, what principles do you have bneside protecting the Badawi, Khariy and Kalimullah.

    Now you are also protecting the corrupted judiciary.

  28. Anonymous11:07 pm

    what disorder? walking around is no disorder. setting up road blocks and placing barking mad police all over town is causing disorder. and what about assemblies being illegal? only because you said so? i won't have my tax money being used to keep you idiots employed. you're fired!

  29. Anonymous11:49 pm

    OMG, the AG...laughed-at by lawyers?
    Malunye! So embarassing!

  30. The AG is probably making a show at all these selected "high profile" cases to divert attention from the ICJ case with Singapore. I thought Malaysia put up a poor showing then.

  31. Anonymous1:21 am


    so funny, correct, Correct, CORRECT.

    when lawyers laugh, something is very very serious, no?

  32. How do Malaysians celebrate World Human Rights day? Just arrest it's Bar Council chairperson for Human Rights la...,this is Malaysian style. Shameful in the eyes of the world :(

  33. Anonymous11:12 am

    laughing stock for the whole world. main actor AG Gani. show sold out for the next 3 months due to overwhelming demand.
    after the show, all the clinics in Wilayah were overwhelmed with patients too. Doctors have to frantically assist the patients as they cannot stop laughing.
    funny? you bet it even beats Jim Carey.
    Ha2.ha2.ha2 i just acnnot stop laughing now just by reading..ha2..ha2...ha2

  34. Anonymous11:25 am

    "The Attorney-General is a member of the Judicial and Legal Service Commission. This commission appoints, promotes and disciplines session judges and magistrates. These are provided for in Articles 138 and 144 of the Constitution."

    "His appearance before these judicial officers could be intimidating and as such could affect their independence and impartiality particularly when their promotions depend on the Attorney-General being one of the members of the commission."

    If this is correct and to be respect, should the new CJ at least give HIM a reminder?

  35. Anonymous12:47 pm

    da real deal,

    You seem to be not seeing the forest for the trees.

    at 3:02 PM - "Those stupid lawyers at the gallery were very selfish. Instead of supporting their colleague/s they are actually making it worse for him/them by ridiculing the system. Being dumb lawyers, I guess they don't bother to check how the system works behind bars."

    at 3:09 PM - "Gani is just illuminating the reputation of lawyers. i.e.crooks of the highest order. If that is their reputation, why moan when it is being advertised? I've never looked upon lawyers as upstanding citizens of the world. Gani's action isn't making it any different than the description I have of lawyers."

    The lawyers present in court were not ridiculing the system, only the nonsensical argument that the AG was making as to why bail should be denied to the accused. Since when does a group of 100 people marching peacefully for human rights, on the sidewalk, early on a Sunday morning, constitute a threat to public disorder? It's like saying we should ban the Great Malaysian Sale because it causes public disorder and lead to unlawful assemblies.

    I am quite sure that those lawyers who were detained knew they would be facing the threat of arrest when they decided to walk last Sunday. They knew that the government is ready to slap them with ISA. Despite that, they, as well as many others, chose to marched.

    Regarding your statement that that lawyers are crooks of the highest order, it's an undeserved stereotype. Why do I say that? In September, 2000 lawyers walked peacefully to submit a memorandum to the PM to request an independent commission to be set up to look into the VK Lingam video. The lawyers marched because they believed the credibility and transparency of the judiciary was at stake. They wanted the guilty parties to be found out and appropriate action meted to restore public confidence that the judicial system is there to protect the rights of the people. Keep in mind that it wasn't a leisurely walk like walking in the air-conditioned comforts of mid-valley megamall. The government and police tried to stop them from submitting the memo, but thank goodness the lawyers prevailed. And when they marched last Sunday, they got arrested. If you watch the videos posted on YouTube and read the first-hand accounts of the people who were there, it appears that the police were just looking for any excuse to arrest the participants. Aside from the fact that the marchers were not allowed to walk as they said were allowed to by the police present, the marchers were also not able to move away from the area (keep in mind that the marchers were trying to cooperate with the police to disperse) because the police were surrounding them. It's like getting a summons for obstructing traffic when you are caught in the middle of a traffic jam. Where is the logic in that?

    In short, the two times they marched were so that people like you and me could be confident we'll be treated fairly by the courts, and to ensure that you and I can enjoy our basic human and constitutional rights to even be heard in the first place.

    Now, tell me again how self-serving, manipulative, cunning and conniving the legal fraternity is?

  36. Anonymous1:15 pm

    Da Real Deal at 5:35PM

    "These yuppy lawyers are the ones defending rapists, murderers and robbers for a fee...and you're implying they are better then the people they are defending?"

    Based on your earlier comments, you are questioning:

    i) whether rapists, murderers and robbers should receive legal representation (and indirectly implying that lawyers are morally wrong for defending these people)

    Regardless of what background they come from, everyone should be entitled to competent legal representation. That is one of the fundamental basics of a fair justice system, that everyone is treated fairly. Shouldn't those accuse of committing crimes be able to hire legal representation that they feel can best represent their interests?

    Keep in mind that our justice system works on the premise of equal treatment, that is, the accused has a right to defend themselves, and that those found guilty of crimes must receive punishment which matches the severity of their crimes. So it's not just a matter of rapists, murderers, and robbers getting their day in court, but it's also a matter of the guilty ones being punished fairly for their crimes. For example, killing someone in cold blood and killing someone in self-defence is essentially the same act of taking a life, but based on totally different premises. Therefore, the punishment must commensurate with the crime.Those found guilty of crimes should receive fair punishment which matches the severity of their crimes, shouldn't they?

    ii) whether lawyers should charge fees for their services

    You question the intentions of lawyers who defend people accused of crimes and charge fees.

    Let me ask you, if you were a professional, let's say an engineer, would you offer your services to everyone? You may choose to only work for those who can afford your fees. Or for those who cannot afford the fees, you may feel charitable and help them out for free or at a reduced price. At the end of the day, you have the right to choose your clients and to charge what price you want for your services. Are you saying that lawyers shouldn't have the same right? Many Malaysian lawyers volunteer to do pro-bono work in the community and for the beneficiaries of non-government organizations and don't charge for their services. Likewise, there are many Malaysian lawyers who choose only to represent those that can afford to pay their fees. But at the end of the day, it's their choice to choose who they want to represent and how much they want to charge.

    Please, don't attempt to apply standards to the legal fraternity to standards that you wouldn't apply to other groups of professionals.

  37. Thinking

    I've had several experiences with lawyers, even those who were acting on my behalf on a strong case against a govt corporation. My defender sold me out and once even missed his court date which had to be rescheduled 6 months later. In the meantime the disbursements continued without gaining much ground until I was exhausted. That's how these crooks work. If I had to constitute proceedings against him on negligence or any other thing, that would take another few years to end not to mention the hiring of another member of the same profession and more costs incurred.

    Yes indeed, other professionals like stock brokers job their clients too. However, unlike lawyers, they don't preach like they are upstanding citizens upholding the law while screwing their clients.

    Do you know why the BN symbol is the scale? It's because there is no difference between members of the legal fraternity and Malaysian politicians. So quit running them down thinking lawyers are above the rest.

    As far as defending the clients are concerned, we're all aware that you can play with both sides as long as you're not caught. Ethics is just a word which most times isn't applicable in any profession.

    You argued a strong case Thinker, but it's all textbook. In real life, you and I know that it's all rubbish. Was Lingam an engineer? Trust me, In the Klang Valley alone, there are thousands like Lingam trying to slither their way to get an advantage while being able to past judgement and preach like Lord Denning.

  38. Anonymous10:21 pm

    Da Real Deal at 3:41PM

    I am sorry to hear about your situation. I truly hope that you will not allow your experience with one (or a few, as I don't know the details) lawyer(s) to blind your eyes to the hundreds of other lawyers who are honest, hardworking, and truly believe in defending the people's rights as enshrined in the constitution. We know that there are at least 2,000 of them in KL who took part in the Sept march. Remember, Minister Nazri tried to paint the 2,000 lawyers who marched as only a minority and insignificant, but at the very least, the public can take comfort in this fact that there are at least a couple of thousand lawyers out there who want a fair judicial system and are willing to stand up for it.

    A healthy judiciary and justice system is designed to weed out incompetent and morally corrupt lawyers and judges. Experiences like yours are precisely the reason why we need a clean, fair, independent and transparent judiciary. A corrupt judiciary ensures those who abuse the justice system continue to stay in power, because the counterchecks built in to preserve the sanctity of justice are ignored or abolished altogether. If the justice and legal system was working and being enforced properly, lawyers like the ones you describe cannot survive for long.

    However, I believe it is still not too late to restore the integrity of the Malaysian judiciary and the justice system. If, as you said, the legal fraternity were in cahoots with the government, why did the lawyers bother to march at the risk of arrest and the ISA? If the corrupt politicians have the lawyers in their pockets, why bother to arrest the lawyers in the first place and stir up all the debate in public? Logic suggests that the lawyers marched because they felt something was very wrong with the current state of the judiciary and the government arrested them because they had something to hide over what the lawyers were asking for. These last two days, we see the same thing happening to BERSIH.

    What have the lawyers and BERSIH got to gain from being arrested and treated to the "warm hospitality" of police detention? It seems very unlikely it's for money or power. Could it be that despite the threat of ISA, they did what they did simply because it was the right thing to do? I know you find that hard to believe, but there are still people out there in Malaysia from all walks of life, who sacrifice personal benefit and go out of their way to help people they don't even know, simply because it's the right thing to do. I know, because I meet many of them in my daily life. I've met my share of slimy characters who don't care about ethics and choose to despise the needs of others. But thankfully, I've met many, many more of the opposite kind who in their own way, live lives of integrity, compassion, and service to their families, communities, and the people they meet. They are the ones who give me hope for Malaysia and they are the very reasons why many people (including lawyers) choose to make a stand against corruption and unfair laws and policies.

    As I said earlier, I don't know the details surrounding your situation, but you sound like you are still bitter about it. It makes you cynical and it's natural to doubt the integrity of the people who are suppose to be protecting your rights after such an experience. But I think you already know that not all lawyers are corrupt, just like not every lawyer is honest. It would be a great loss if we were to unjustly stereotype people of a certain race, religion, gender, or social class into certain categories. Stereotyping is often the basis of discrimination and feeds the twin monsters of fear and ignorance.

    What's important is that as thinking individuals, we must keep an open mind, educate ourselves, make our own decisions on the issues that affect our lives and the lives of the people around us, and be willing to change our minds and our behaviours if we are wrong. That is our responsibility as citizens of this country, as members of our communities, and as the leaders of our families. That is what I am trying to do for myself, and that is what I believe you are trying to do too or else you wouldn't be here reading this blog, right? Keep the faith and don't let past experiences rob you of the many positives and joys that life brings to you and the hope that the future offers.

  39. Thinking,

    As there are bad and corupt lawyers there are also the upstanding few. As some of the 1000odd laywers in the midst of the opposition that walked in Putrajaya were there purely to show their concern for the Judiciary, there were some lawyers who were there just to ape their counterparts in Pakistan.

    Did the Bar Council seek the proper channels leading to the PM's office before deciding to go to the streets? Was the effort totally exhausted before due consideration was taken? Remember, this PM is Abdullah the ever willing to please and not Mahathir the "dictator".

    I didn't imply that the lawyers are in cohoots with the government. I implied that they run parallel with each other in corruption as well as in righteousness. It makes me sick when lawyers attack politicians when they themselves are deplorable to most.

    Your whole piece was beautiful describing how lawyers really do serve the people that require their services with integrity barring a few bad ones, and we are to open our minds and not generalize or stereotype a certain group or profession.

    Now I ask you to apply the same on politicians and members of the government for they deserve same respect and benefit of the doubt as the rest.

  40. Anonymous2:02 pm

    Da Real Deal,

    From what the Malaysian Bar has said, it seems that they did try to go through proper channels, but ran head-on into bureaucracy and opposition which they did not encounter before and which to me, smells strongly of behind-the-scene political interference.

    I urge you to go to the website for the Malaysian Bar, http://www.malaysianbar.org.my and read for yourself the Bar's own accounts of events. Don't just rely on what's reported in the mainstream media and newspapers because they are not reporting a lot of things which are not favourable to the current administration. Malaysiakini.com also had reports and news which the mainstream media will not screen. For myself, at this point in time I am more inclined to take the word of the Bar over what the mainstream media reports because it comes straight from the horse's mouth, so to speak, and various independent videos and first-hand accounts seem to support the Bar Council's version of events more.

    I am not saying people must reach the same conclusion as I have, but what's important is that people must have free and unfettered access to all information, good and bad so they can make up their own minds about something. The mainstream media and newspapers don't seem to practice unbiased reporting anymore, so I've had to turn online to get a more balanced picture. I have tried to educate myself on the issues as best I can, and this is the conclusion I have reached.

    Like you, I also think its very hypocritical when people accuse others of things which they themselves are guilty of. But when I think back to what this present administration promised to do four years ago, and what they have achieved since then, I think they need to be reminded that they had a mandate to serve the people of this country. Not everyone in this present administration is corrupt, but the dissonance between words said and actions taken by its leaders, especially our PM and his Cabinet, and other ministers and politicans in influential positions leads me to believe they are not the people who should be leading Malaysia. Four years to keep their promises but the rakyat who are most in need of help and protection are not getting it, morally corrupt politicians keep getting reappointed to positions of power and in some cases, rewarded for their incompetence, the media have been reduced to running dogs to spread the propaganda that all is fine and dandy, the ACA, police force and the judicial system have been perverted, and the criminals are prospering.

    I am not anti-government or anti-politicians, just anti-corruption. I want good, just, fair and transparent governance. I believe that people's basic rights to live in peace and freedom with one another, to practice whatever religion and belief they want, to get a good education, to own property, and to enjoy the fair fruits of their labour, without persecution and harrassment, should be protected. I want Malaysia to be a country where those who are caught in the vicious cycle of poverty, illiteracy and crime, will get the help and support they need, regardless of their race, skin colour or religion.

    I believe we have good politicians, just as we have good lawyers. But right now, Malaysia has more bad politicians running the country than good ones. The present situation offers us the opportunity to demand these bad leaders get kicked out and the good ones rewarded.

  41. Thinker,

    I don't rely on the mainstream media, that is why I asked if the Bar Council had actually exhausted their effort through proper channeling before walking Putrajaya thinking that you might be privy to this.

    Had that been the case then their walk was justified indeed.

    I go through the various blogs to seek the true picture but it seems of late, even they are guilty of the same crime as the mainstream media only in the opposite direction which makes them equally dispicable. For instance, I read one that said that the Hindraf gathering was 30,000 strong. We both know that's a load of cow dung.

    About the media being running dogs. As I know you are not naive, this will happen under any leadership. It happened under the sacked Deputy Prime Minister who is now the de facto opposition leader. It will not change even if DAP takes over. So that's a dead end.

    The ACA has recorded more cases in the last four years than the preceding four which includes several big shots. Surely you must admit that.

    As far as the judiciary is concerned, the Lingam part is actually a taste from the previous administration which is being investigated under the current one.

    As regards to criminals, well it would help if we ease up on police bashing. They are among the least paid and the highest risk takers among the servants of the govt. With meagre income and not so bright future, what else have they got to cling on to if not commendations from the rakyat. Even you and I wouldn't be motivated to risk our lives cheaply when we are unappreciated I'm sure.

    We engaged in this because I felt that lawyers need to look at themselves first before passing judgement on politicians. I have lived long enough to bear witness that up till today, there are more crooked and corrupt lawyers than there are politicians. As lawyers have the right to speak out against the wrongdoings of politicians, they mustn't do it acting like they are superior in moral. Because that is the furthest from the truth.

  42. Anonymous12:50 pm

    Da Real Deal,

    I think we've carried on this discussion as far as it can go on this particular topic. I don't think I will reply on this post again, but I look forward to reading your comments and opinions again on other blog posts or blogs wherever we may meet, if we do meet again. I have enjoyed exchanging views with you. Permit me to share my views with regards to yourlast reply before we move on from here. It is a rather lengthy reply, but I hope you will humour me.

    First, let me say that I agree that everyone, including lawyers, in should examine themselves first before passing judgment on anyone else. But I think our government and politicians are also guilty of judging people, including the lawyers without giving their concerns due consideration, despite what some ministers and the MSM are saying.

    I agree with you of the dangers of relying on information posted on blogs. I also agree with what you say about the MSM likely to be influenced by political forces, regardless of what leadership they are under. I don't believe that the media will always be 100% unbiased but it can come quite close to it if equal access is given to alternative voices to reach the mainstream public. If you compare the type of coverage which public TV and radio broadcasting stations have given to the Penguin March, BERSIH and HINDRAF rallies, versus what was reported online and verified, you can see a large portion of the supposedly objective MSM reporting is anything but truthful and is heavily skewed in favour of the government.

    Regarding your comment that it will be just the same under DAP, I believe that it will not as long as the opposition falls into the same alternate reality that BN seems to be existing in right now. The opposition should know that just as they can use online media to publicise their cause,it can just as easily destroy them because of how easily alternative voices can be heard online. The most precious asset they have right now is the credibility they have worked hard to achieve and I think that this is what will help to keep them in check. On a related note, Malaysian socio-political bloggers must tackle the task of continually pushing their blogs to a higher level of accountability where the sourcing, verifying, dissemination, and analysis of information are of the highest possible quality so their credibility and transparency cannot be disputed.

    About the ACA's track record of success, true, we've seen some suggestive headlines but I would argue that it's the small fish getting arrested while the bigger fish are still being protected. Not forgetting also the red herrings thrown here and there to divert public attention. There was much being made about the RM27 million civil servant, but he was eventually charged with something else while his allegations about other high-profile civil servants were pooh-poohed at. Until now, little solid evidence have been presented, either to prosecute him or to refute his claims. Even though there may be more cases recorded, ACA has yet to be clarified how many cases were actually brought to court and how many offenders were successfully prosecuted. This is symptomatic of how some government departments often say they will do something, but don't really do anything.

    Look at the recent Auditor General's report. Many of those cases that were mentioned have been on going for years and even now, has yet to be satisfactorily addressed in public. How much more time and money do the various ministries need to solve the problem? And how about the transparency of government tenders and contracts? The multi million MATRADE fiasco and the multi-billion Port Klang Free Zone white elephant? The assorted government buildings in KL and Putrajaya that are sprouting leaks and collasping roofs by the dozen? And the other day we had one whole government office costing RM4.5 million collapse at Tasik Temenggor.

    The Lingam scandal may have had its roots in the previous administration but why is this present administration dragging its feet about the issue, and even then, only reluctantly putting in half-hearted measures to address it? If the PM still means what he promised four years ago about stamping out corruption, this issue would not be dragging on for so long and in the manner it has played out. As the defacto Minister of Law, Minister Nazri speaks and acts on behalf of our PM. Minister Nazri's comments and position on the Lingam video as well as the subsequent Penguin March and BERSIH rally suggests that the present administration is not inclined to objectively listen to voices which tells them things they don't want to hear or to satisfactorily investigate their concerns, damn the truth. In the words of Minister Nazri, they are only the minority and their voices will fall on deaf ears. If I was the PM and I did not agree with Minister Nazri, I'd make it clear that he does not speak for me, or at least, privately take him aside and tell him to tone his words down because I don't agree with him. But as it is, the fact that Minister Nazri is still allowed to blare things of this nature over his personal foghorn (and it seems, in ever worsening degrees) leads me to believe that our PM endorses his views. And if this is so, it shows that our PM is no more a man of the people because he doesn't listen to the people any more, only a select group of elite individuals who claim to speak for the majority but keep their heads in the sand. Even if given the benefit of the doubt that those closest to him are misleading him as some parties allege, the PM still does not have a good excuse to be ignorant of or to disregard public concerns.

    I have the utmost respect for our civil service, especially for those at the front lines dealing with the public everyday like the policemen and women, teachers, customer services officers, office assistants and such. I know it is not an easy job to do. Like I said in an earlier reply, I am not anti-government (or anti-civil servants), just anti-corruption. The ACA, police force and judicial systems exist for the good of the people and this country, but you cannot deny they have been perverted for unjust causes because of corruption. Like I also said earlier, there are good people out there in Malaysia living lives of integrity, compassion and hardwork. I believe they should be rewarded appropriately for their service but at the same time, those corrupted individuals who somehow managed to worm their way to the top should be removed. Corruption begets corruption, even more so if it comes from the top. If our civil service is in a bad state today, I think a large part of the accountability should rest with those entrusted with protecting and managing the integrity of the civil service. Bad management and corrupt practices should not be rewarded with Datukships and Tan Sris and comfy directorships on GLC boards. The government needs to practice what it preaches.

  43. Thinker,

    Quite a long statemment. I would have preferred short ones so I can respond and go toe to toe with you on each issue. I don't have a long attention span but by reading your whole masterpiece, I was doing it out of respect rather than humour.

    Suffice to say that on the whole, I'm in agreement with you on most issues and hope to correspond with you further in other blogs and on other issues.

    If you're a Muslim or a Christian, than have a Happy Hari Raya or Merry Christmas. If you're neither, here's wishing you a Happy New Year.