Sunday, January 10, 2010

Kit Siang's right! Umno, esp Najib and Hisham, did fail to address the Allah issue properly

Updated, after midnight: Don't Blame the Government by Bujai:
"For the first time ever, I would like to defer from what Rockybru wrote today ... "
Read more here.

Original article:

Here's how they can now deal with the issue properly. I read Kit Siang's posting with the longest heading "Call on Malaysians - including religious bodies, political parties, NGOs - not to take part in demonstrations over the "Allah" controversy to avoid the trap of irresponsible political desperadoes out to exploit, manipulate the politicize the issue", h e r e, where he reproduced an SMS purportedly sent to him which read “UMNO, esp Najib & Hishammuddin must bear full responsibility for d churches burning incidents since they failed to address d Allah issue properly, allowing people to demonstrate, thus causing it to escalate & spin out of proportion” and I must say that while Kit Siang made Kit Siang look like a fool by blaming Friday's demonstrations for the church arson (because everybody knows the church arson came before the demonstration and not the other way round), he was nevertheless right about one thing: Umno, Najib and Hishammuddin did fail to address the Allah issue properly.

They should not have allowed the matter to be dealt with by the courts. Go ahead, Zambry can join the likes of Anwar Ibrahim, Theresa Kok, and other politicians and sue Suara Keadilan for defamation in court, or you can have a field day with the sodomy case later this month.

BUT the Allah issue is an issue affecting Islam the official religion of this country, and such matters come under the purview of the Yang di-Pertuan Agong.

The King has called for calm and mutual respect, and has made his views on the Allah issue known. He said:
"To ensure peace and harmony among the followers of different religions, the meaning and reference to "Allah" in the general context should conform to the description fixed by Islam because this practice has all this while been accepted by Malaysians of other faiths."
I will not attempt to interpret the Tuanku's opinion and I don't think Najib, Kit Siang, or anyone else should.

For peace and harmony, this is a matter only the Council of Rulers can deliberate and decide. Najib's job is to advise the Agong on this matter, for sake of peace and harmony. Whatever the Council of Rulers decide on the matter, I'm sure Malaysians of all faiths will akur.

Christians and Muslims have lived, worked, and played together in Malaysia for years and years without untoward incident. Umno, esp Najib and Hishammuddin, must do this properly so we can co-exist forever in bliss and I think even Kit Siang will agree with me on that.

Read also:

1. Wong Chun Wai's On the Beat, Douse the fire of Madness. A court decision should not be the end of all matters. Consensus could still be reached if the right initiatives and comprises are taken. The challenge to our politicial leaders, Wong writes, is to have the courage to do what is right for Malaysia and not just try to say the right things.

2. Oh Muslims! Oh Christians! What is wrong with us? by Anas Zubedy who asks Muslims to understand some of the frustrations of the Christians in matters related to their faith, eg the never-ending wait for approval to build a new church.

3. Islam: Hak dan Tanggung-jawab Raja-Raja Melayu, in which A.Kadir Jasin says "sudah sampai masanya bagi setiap orang Islam, sama ada sebagai individu, persatuan, pasukan atau kumpulan, merayu dan mendesak Yang di-Pertuan Agong serta Raja-Raja Melayu agar campur tangan".

126 comments:

Anonymous said...

Rasanya wajar sekali kita merenung kata-kata Gopal Raj Kumar yang kami petik di bawah ini:

What Catholics appear to be seeking here is an extension to that form of racism that whatever non Malays and non Muslims wish to do in the name of religion has to be tolerated in the name of a half written constitution. Whilst at the same time arguing against everything that the Malays as a majority in a democracy do as wrong and racist.

Catholics must learn to reciprocate in kind to a people in whose country they have been treated with much reverence, dignity and respect over centuries. Malaysia although fundamentally a Muslim state has, advocated for and advanced Catholic (and other religious causes and purposes) without the let or hindrance of religious intolerance like that imposed on them by the Thais, Burmese, Philippines, Australians, Chinese and more recently the Swiss.

Much of the reason we are able to debate such issues and to read and write about it today it is often argued is the result of a good Catholic education. Wrong! It is equally the result of Malay Muslim generosity in allowing the propagation of the faith, its schools and other institutions to thrive and its tolerance of their values.

It is a pity that in return all that the Catholic church has to offer is an insult to the Malays and Malay Muslims in persuing such a worthless policy of provocation.

In a demonstration of its faith in its own credo of Good Christian Charity and goodwill, the Catholic Church ought to withdraw the ridiculous and provocative demand now legitimised by a flawed decision. It should demonstrate that it ought not to be allowed the sinister use of one Arabic word Allah which is clearly a thorn in the side of its Malay majority hosts.

The church may do so without any embarrassment to itself. On the contrary with one fell act of goodness and respect it would build a bridge of understanding likely to last forever as a monument to its credo, rather than for the blemishes in its record of insults, abuse, its betrayal to the colonials and the undermining of the cultural and religious sensitivities and heritage of Malaysia’s majority (http://takemon.wordpress.com/about/).

-from another anon-

Anonymous said...

Apek Karut!

He should build 2 Noah's Arc, pack all his people in it and set sail one northeast (Nakhoda Ah So) and one northwest (Nakhoda Aney)...

All problems in this country solved!!

PERWIRA

Anonymous said...

more indians being killed in series of brutal racisms & racist-religious attack in australia lah.

http://www.isavesmart.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=59297:Indian%27s-burnt-remains-found-in-Australia&catid=424:world-news-video&Itemid=1003333

lucky iam in malaysia

vinnan

Anonymous said...

Some self-appointed defenders of Islam including the chief of “1 Malaysia” have insisted that Catholics should use “Tuhan” instead of “Allah” to address the Catholic or Christian God. But in the national anthem, “Tuhan” (not “Allah”) bless the country (…Tuhan kurniakan…). How now ?!!!. If Malay-Muslims are that easily confused as portrayed by some politicians, they must be thinking that Malaysia is blessed by the Catholic/Christian God, and the Muslim God “Allah” is perpetually on leave. Perhaps, this confusion may cause the government to change the national anthem by replacing “Tuhan” with “Allah”. But then again, non-muslims will not be allowed to sing the national anthem. Then it would be non-muslims’ turn to be confused.

So much for “1 Malaysia”!!!. It looks more like “1 Helluva confusing & divide and rule”!!!.

-Sam

Anonymous said...

If kit siang "looks" like a fool, you rocky are trying to prove yourself a fool.
Don`t you read the news anymore? Most of the church attacks are taking place after the demos.

-MSM

Btw, your Hindraf friends are planning a candlelight vigil on wednesday and you better inform certain parties to arrest them.

Anonymous said...

Aha! But then you see, Rocky, your inherent bigotry shows all too clearly: to presuppose that this is an Islamic issue, and therefore under the King, is to presuppose that "Allah" is a word belonging to Muslims only. What if the Christians have a right to the word too, then surely it is not an Islamic issue but a language issue, yes?

So twist and spin all you want, mate, you're just an opportunistic narrow-minded fascist like the rest of your ilk. Bet you're supportive of the arsons, c'mon why don't you admit it.

Unimpressed.

Anonymous said...

rocky tapi apa position dia? apa kata lim kit siang pasal cadangan pakiam nak guna kalimah allah ni? dia sokong atau tidak? apa ulasan azmin ali. hadi tak jelas di sebut. kedah PAS? khalid gagap sebut apa? apa kata guan eng? azizah? nurul izzah? soi lek?

i hope u can send your reporters to each of them and get their direct quote. put em on tape...

peminatrocky

Anonymous said...

Instead blaming Ds Najib and Hisham, it's better still for Kit Siang to suggest or initiate some solutions to the issue. Blaming is easy but if just for the sake to talk cock better for him to shut up.
Funny when so many people talk and pointing finger but never have condusive ideas. Even Chua Jui Meng also talk cock. After he joined PKR he already becoming idiot. See how he talk. Asking Najib and Tun M to talk in OIC. I will fully agree if Allah word is used in all the Bible or other printed matter in Malaysia instead of Lord, Jesus or God. Only then it's fair to all. Don't just short change people. KDN approved the Herald publication minus the word Allah so be it.

Happiness is when you know when to be satisfied.

We support the government of Malaysian and please bear in mind that The word Allah belong to Islam and not UMNO. SAM - Saya Anak Malaysia said .............

Anonymous said...

Rocky...u r just an ordinory blogger lah..basic principle of any religion...one should know how to respect a senior citizen...he is a senior citizen loved by many malaysians....by calling him with words LIKE fool....UNDERMINES YOUR BASIC CULTURE....GROW UP MAN...

Anonymous said...

Put simply ...

Use 'Tuhan' for god in BM.
The insistence to use 'Allah' is clearly a provocation just like campaigning for the return of chin peng as 'pejuang bangsa'.

These are clearly acts of provocation knowing full well the multi-religious context of Malaysia.

Some retards say that East Malaysians had been using 'Allah' even though they are christians.

To these retards - if you KNOW that SMOKING is hazardous to your health and you have been smoking for years, should you introduce smoking to your wife and children.

Remember the CONTEXT is West Malaysia. Some subversives need a brain transplant.

Anonymous said...

vinnan should be sent to Australia to support his kind

Specially for niaseng & like-minded ingrates ...

Chinese Exclusion Act (1882)
In the spring of 1882, the Chinese Exclusion Act was passed by Congress and signed by President Chester A. Arthur. This act provided an absolute 10-year moratorium on Chinese labor immigration. For the first time, Federal law proscribed entry of an ethnic working group on the premise that it endangered the good order of certain localities.

The Chinese Exclusion Act required the few nonlaborers who sought entry to obtain certification from the Chinese government that they were qualified to immigrate. But this group found it increasingly difficult to prove that they were not laborers because the 1882 act defined excludables as “skilled and unskilled laborers and Chinese employed in mining.” Thus very few Chinese could enter the country under the 1882 law.

The 1882 exclusion act also placed new requirements on Chinese who had already entered the country. If they left the United States, they had to obtain certifications to re-enter. Congress, moreover, refused State and Federal courts the right to grant citizenship to Chinese resident aliens, although these courts could still deport them.

When the exclusion act expired in 1892, Congress extended it for 10 years in the form of the Geary Act. This extension, made permanent in 1902, added restrictions by requiring each Chinese resident to register and obtain a certificate of residence. Without a certificate, she or he faced deportation.

The Geary Act regulated Chinese immigration until the 1920s. With increased postwar immigration, Congress adopted new means for regulation: quotas and requirements pertaining to national origin. By this time, anti-Chinese agitation had quieted. In 1943 Congress repealed all the exclusion acts, leaving a yearly limit of 105 Chinese and gave foreign-born Chinese the right to seek naturalization. The so-called national origin system, with various modifications, lasted until Congress passed the Immigration Act of 1965. Effective July 1, 1968, a limit of 170,000 immigrants from outside the Western Hemisphere could enter the United States, with a maximum of 20,000 from any one country. Skill and the need for political asylum determined admission. The Immigration Act of 1990 provided the most comprehensive change in legal immigration since 1965. The act established a “flexible” worldwide cap on family-based, employment-based, and diversity immigrant visas. The act further provides that visas for any single foreign state in these categories may not exceed 7 percent of the total available.

For more information on Chinese Immigration and the Chinese in the United States, visit the National Archives web site.


(Information excerpted from Teaching With Documents: Using Primary Sources From the National Archives. [Washington, DC: National Archives and Records Administration, 1989.] pp. 82-85.)

Anonymous said...

The issue is not difficult really. The Catholics sees fit to put a dagger and twist the knife in Muslim's soul. The Muslims reacted rather mildly and they say oh we forgive you. What diabolical mind.

Semantics and linguistic subterfuges do not make your cunning less obvious. Your intent is clear to Muslims. This is provocation to the extreme.

Muslims have been too patient. They still do not see this as an act of war. They just wish for you Catholics to just STOP IT. We don't even want an apology. Just STOP IT.

The politicians are impotent. It is up to you and me to deal with this. The guy at the top is not half the man his father was. The daughter wannabe statesman like her father is, seems so pathetic. Muslim politicians pandering to western opinion look so dayus.

Stop telling us that Christians are advancing with society while Islam seems so old fashion. You are so much in step with society that homosexuality is now acceptable to your churches. You have how many versions of bible? Don't impose your values on us. They are vile. We don't go about telling you what to be.

Just STOP putting the dagger in our soul. Just STOP asking and STOP using ALLAH in your publication. Then this madness that you started will stop. So please. Otherwise you are pushing us to the edge.

Mat Kong

Askin said...

For a change Rocky's being very impartial here and rightfully so. This is a serious matter that could easily spin out of control in a multi-religious and multi-ethnic Malaysia. The way Najib and Hisham handled it was like they were stoking the fire of communalism instead of cooling tensions.

A dialogue is the best solution. This is our chance to show that we Muslims can discuss matters rationally. Molotov-cocktails are the way of dimwits and the KKK.

Anonymous said...

Despite them being at loggerheads, this is one issue where Nazri and Mahathir seem to agree on...this matter should have not reached the courts.
So was the A-G sleeping on the job?

Ding-ding

Anonymous said...

Why burn churches that Chinese uses? They don't use the word 'Allah', they should go after the Dayaks and the Kandazan in Sarawak and Sabah since they use BM in their church.

Those UMNO racist are targeting the wrong people, they only add pain to the country.

Anonymous said...

salam,
really am so sad with all the scenario..Allah matters should be given to the right authority..Majlis fatwa and yes the highest is the yang Pertuan Agong..Islam is the agama rasmi for Malaysia in the perlembagaan...but we have tolerated with the non muslim such as in our rukun negara..where we say kepercayaan kepada tuhan and we didnt say kepercayaan kepada Allah because we respected other races and religion..and yes the chinese jugde does not have the right to make a judgement about Allah..Allah tidak beranak dan tidak diperanakkan..mempertahankan Allah adalah jihad for all muslim..i just pray..all the huhah should settle and lets leave in peace..another thing when Queen Isabella takes over Cardoba from muslim she has never given chance to muslim...but when Prophet Muhammad takes over Madinah..he has given the rights and respect to other religion and protect them..Islam itu tinggi dan tiada yang lebih tinggi darinya...dan tiada tuhan melainkan Allah..jangan downgrade Allah kepada tuhan-tuhan yang lain..salam jihad..Panglima Hitam..

Anonymous said...

for Rockybru's , it is always Anwar's faults....everytime without fail !!


Batu

Anonymous said...

Tafsiran kami ialah titah SPB Tuanku should prevail. Mahkamah Rayuan kena take cognizance.
Mahkamah Shariah, should also take cognizance, terutamanya bersabit dgn keputusan Majlis Fatwa Kebangsaan yg clear cut dan kesan perundangan keputusan itu serta titah Tuanku. Kenalah kasi taring perlembagaan supaya yg tak akur, tak kira siapa, walaubagaimanapun pada akhirnya kena akur. Sebab di mana bumi di pijak, di situ langit di junjung.
SPB menjalankan tugas-tugas sptmana yg tertera dlm perlembagaan, dan kenalah kita pertahankan, perjelaskan dan laksanakan.

drMpower said...

aiye? if we are to follow uncle's kit's piece on UMNO and Najib's failure to 'address the issue properly', then we all can say..

Kit Siang guilty of all account in keeping quite over the incident for the whole week. His failure to say anything in his capacity as Malaysian (is he one? yes if he got MyKad. spiritually i dont really know) proved 1000% that he has no interest in getting the society rested to avoid future calamity/problems.

He as one of the elected members of Parliament, should help to calm this situation down.

but would he?

if he do that (which he didnt because he kept quite whole last week), pigs will fly i tell u.

pigs will only be pigs, they eat leftovers, taking chances of the others. so does kit siang. nothing has change.

Mrs love said...

Tis a lesson for us all.
You play with fire, you get burned.
Jangan menjolok sarang tebuan.

Anonymous said...

http://i613.photobucket.com/albums/tt212/orgtranung/Gereja_Anwar.jpg

Anonymous said...

Hak orang2 Islam dinegara sendiri semakin lupus. Agaknya berapa banyak kebebasan yang manusia inginkan?

Anonymous said...

Anonymous,
The issues and problems caused by the word "ALLAH" is manupulated by UMNO to instill fear on the public. Najib has seen his popularity plumeting faster than a falling rocket. If there is a by-election you can bet Barisan will lose big time. Both Najib and Kerismuddin are the cause of the problem. Both these fanatics should be sent to hell.
Disgusted.

ziarah76 said...

i agree with you rocky!

Anonymous said...

rocky,

u & that pasquale & that tangent guy, have those funny logo " satu sekolah..." at your sidebar, what is that for?

when you shitheads keep posting all ur crappy shits in english?

why? bahasa malaysia not cun ke?

Anonymous said...

Umno didn't do it.

Pas didn't do it.

And neither Pkr or dap.

So, who? u think it could be the work of some kathoey... u know 'fairy'?

Anonymous said...

The word Allah does not belong solely to Islam only. As such the courts has the right to decide NOT the Religious Council. This is not about Islam. Do not be blinded by religious fanactism.

tlk

looes74 said...

The best way of resolving the problem is to uphold the constituition.

I am sorry to say if the Raja2 Melayu were given the free hand on deliberating the issue, they would still stick to the constituition.

That means Lau Bee Lan's judgement on Herald is absolute correct. Herald has the right to use Allah for its publication

We would not have the roller coaster if teh former Minister of Home Affair decided not to ban Herald in using Allah. Instead Minister of Home Affair should have enforced no publicity on this matter. Talk to the christian folks to ensure that it stays with christian communities

So if UMNO did not decide to sue this as a political milleage of wagging the dog to boost its popularity, none of this would ever happen.

Now, since it has become such a big mess, further judgement on either way would serve no purpose

Rocky,
Christians known to be meek but steadfast to the matter. The best compromise is for moslems to stick to St Catherine's promise by none other than Your prophet, Mohammad
Remember Indonesia & Malaysia are close neigbours. Look at this scenario.......If an Indonesian maid caught with a presumably banned Bahasa Indonesia's bible by Malaysian authorities, what would be the likely Indonesia's reaction? Indonesia is not happy with Sipadan's loss. Just Imagine

Rocky,
Leave & let live. Reset back to before. Stcik to original constituition as prescribed by Lau Bee Lan. For the sake of Malaysia, Asean & the world.
You can't win all the time, Rocky

Fed Up Serani said...

Sam and other Pakatan fans,

Stop blaming 1Malaysia this and 1Malaysia that lah.

This is your Malaysia and my Malaysia.

Each time something goes wrong you blame 1Malaysia.

Each time something goes wrong you politicize.

Apa bangsat la puak-puak lu ni.

1Malaysia is a call for unity, for Malaysians to love one another, and work together to bring prosperity and peace to this nation.

So blaming 1Malaysia only shows that you are not interested in Unity and the other beautiful things we should be pursuing.

Go live in Bangkok and marry Susan Loone la dei!

Fed up Serani.

Anonymous said...

Salam Rocky,

Pohon maaf kerana keluar tajuk.Saya ingin menarik perhatian Rocky kepada kes pembelian alat tentera yg dibuat dengan tidak mengikut tatacara biasa yg menimbulkan pelbagai syak wasangka dan kesangsian.Ianya melibatkan billion riggit.Perkara ini tersiar didalam blog Mind No Evilyg membawa tajuk"VERA-E-WAS IT SENSIBLE ACQUITION"yg diposkan pada January9,2010.

Olih kerana saya anggap perkara ini sebagai satu perkara yg amat penting untuk dibongkar dan diselidik secara menyeluroh saya pohon jasabaik saudara Rocky membuat sesuatu untuk mendapat perhatian pihak berkenaan supaya tindakan yg sepatutnya akan diambil.Terima kasih.
Askar Tua.

Anonymous said...

Why why why....no other name ka available for your god. What is the real moti ve? How much you guys trying to stretch our patience?? why umno?? and why rasict?? can't you guys see that this is religion related. I dont care what Christian want to call their god but ALLAH is strictly NO NO.
What about DAP stance on this issue? Uncle LKS sure will wait and see how thing develop first...isnt it?
To SA and KS people. Alhamdullilah, great job from yr YBs. So now you guys can share ALLAH with others.
Our current gov is such a pussycat... :-(
Rozi66

looes74 said...

Serani,
1Malaysia was enspoused in response to Ketuanan rakyat. So does the Juara Rakyat programmes. It sounds like election campaign to me though it's great for the people. BN need to give more gula2 besides the usual GE

Serani,
Me say, why not stick to original constituition? The one signed by Tunku Abdul Rahman with british. Tunku is from UMNO, right?
By the way, Tunku is not happy with Najib's father. Definitely not happy with Mahathir....

People,
I fall off while laughing at comment such as this,

"Da, we moslems, respect the non moslems, so we accept the first sentence of Rukun Negara"

Kepercayaan kepada Tuhan

Ah but then, it would create confusion among moslems.....Ah so then how ah....Of people can be confused at one point of time & not confused at teh rest.....My advice is "Grow Up!".....See with these kinda of comments coming in. Wouldn't you shoot down the Home Ministry's directive of banning Allah in Herald publication in the first place? Plus tons of books kenna consficated from Indonesia.
Luckily no Indonesia kenna caught with the "banned" bible. Haven't you guys see the "eruption" going on during the the origin of Negaraku? A likely spark of diplomatic incident
Back to Malaysia again, remember we have several state anthems got Allah in it........

Guys,
To sing or not to sing. Why state anthems can be used? Not others........What a tangle web we weave.
There are thousand & one things we can fight over.....Oh when it's gonna end

Saudara-saudari sekalian,

Di Sabah & Sarawak, mereka mempunyai kanun2 yang tersendiri. Kalau tidak, mereka tak mahu bergabung dengan Malaysia.

Ellese A said...

I agree with you.

What has happen was a lack of leadership in our political leaders be it UMNO or PAS. What transpired was that the unhappiness which is widespread took a course of its own. Had there been muslims leadership on this issue it would landed differently.

Now the deep seated muslims concerned apparently being brushed aside without empathy and understanding. Its as if our view are stupid and a minority. And all this boottle up frustration mmust be tended or otherwise our nation will not heal.

Ellese

Rocky's Bru said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Rocky's Bru said...

Askin wrote,

For a change Rocky's being very impartial here and rightfully so. This is a serious matter that could easily spin out of control in a multi-religious and multi-ethnic Malaysia. The way Najib and Hisham handled it was like they were stoking the fire of communalism instead of cooling tensions.

A dialogue is the best solution. This is our chance to show that we Muslims can discuss matters rationally. Molotov-cocktails are the way of dimwits and the KKK.

------------------------

Dear Askin,

I said I agreed with Kit Siang, that Umno, Najib and Hishammuddin, failed to deal with the Allah issue properly.

I did not agree with him that Umno, Najib and Hisham should take responsibility for the church arson

Two different things, mate.

Najib did not tell people to demonstrate against the Court decision allowing the use of Allah by Catholic Herald. He was telling them that if they must protest, to keep it peaceful and within the mosque compound.

As a result, the demonstrations by Muslim groups on Friday were peaceful. Small. And away from the streets.

And at this stage, dear Askin, I can't agree with you and Kit Siang about dialogue. The matter is with the Appeals Court now, so let the Appeals Court decide.

I have suggested in my posting that Najib advises the King to call his brother Rulers to convene a meeting to rule on the Allah issue, regardless of what the Appeals Court decide on the use of ALlah by the Catholic Herald.

Thank you.

Anonymous said...

“Kerajaan amat komited untuk menjaga keadaan yang harmoni dan hubungan yang baik antara kaum dan agama di dalam negara kita,” katanya kepada pemberita selepas meninjau kerosakan yang dialami oleh Gereja Metro Tabernacle di Desa Melawati, Kuala Lumpur.

Ada logik ke, melawat tempat yang ditimpa musibah dua sepupu ni bolih suka, mereka ketawa, mereka gelak....!!! (Ha... rancangan aku berjaya...!!! sambil tersenyum ....)
http://kerajaanrakyat.blogspot.com/2010/01/aku-tak-kentut-dia-yang-kentut.html

-apalagi

PRAY,IT WORKS. joe's blog said...

Kit Siang's right! Umno, esp Najib and Hisham, did fail to address the Allah issue properly

Updated, after midnight: Don't Blame the Government by Bujai:

"For the first time ever, I would like to defer from what Rockybru wrote today ... "

Read more here

I say mr stone, rocky, are you and Bujai putting on a sendiwara. Bloggers have been known to band together to sway public opinion. You know one plays good guy, the other, bad.

EngHui said...

''He should build 2 Noah's Arc, pack all his people in it and set sail one northeast (Nakhoda Ah So) and one northwest (Nakhoda Aney)...''

These natives in E Malaysia probably set foot there way before the sperm of your great-great-grandfather were form…

'' I will fully agree if Allah word is used in all the Bible or other printed matter in Malaysia instead of Lord, Jesus or God.''

Your comment shows that you don’t understand Christianity at all… and worst you are applying your understanding on Muslim (or other religions) into Christianity. This thought process is dangerous; this is like trying a non-muslim in a Syariah court.

One would call HIM GOD, LORD, FATHER in English, or ‘Sang Tee’ or ‘Seng’ or ‘Tien Fu’ in Chinese.
This is how it is…
Word like 'lord' by itself is just a word, same as the word 'allah', when used without refering to God.

The confusion is about 'why the Malay speaking Christians use the word 'ALLAH''

AMENO said...

AMENO Chacha Marba said...
SKRG api keMARAHan telah terbakar keserata negeri,dari KL ke PJ keTAIPING,keMIRI dan tak tau esok kemana pula....Yang korang dok BANTAI si-Anwar dan Khalid,tak ada apa2 kesan pun..!!!
Mana pergi POLIS,nak kawal JENAYAH ni..?????Cakap aje lebih..!!!Pegi lah TANGKAP puak2 yang celupar mulut kat demo SHAH ALAM ,jumaat lalu..Kenapa tak cekup Mat UMNO tu?
SUMBAT keDALAM I.S.A...!!!!!!!!!!
KENAPA TAK BUAT..???KENA batang hidung sendiri....???Apa yang si HISHAMUDDIN dan IGP buat..????
Ni nak suruh POLIS jdi Mat DESPATCH
pegi antar 400000 I/C,pulak......
PELIK,PELIK..tetapi BENAR....!!!!

Pihak POLIS sepatutnya cekap memantau keadaan KESELAMATAN negara
kita,dengan jabatan CID nya,jabatan
pencegah rusuhan nya,perisiknya dsb
tapi kenapa TIDAK BERKESAN..????
Apa yg BERKESAN ialah RASUAH,RASUAH
dan BANTAH IPCMC,dan tangkap,sumbat
ahli2 politik PAKATAN atas macam2 tuduhan yg remeh temeh....selain dari Najib dan Hisham,IGP Musa pun
FAIL...!!!!Eloklah lantik ROSMAH aje jadi Menteri KDN,ganti Hisham,
that way,bukan aje negara ROSMAH bolih control,PM pun dia kuat control,mah......

Anonymous said...

Maybe in future the advice given should be :-

"TOLONG JANGAN PROTEST SECARA RAMAI RAMAI DI MANA MANA PUN"
PADA MASA SEKARANG KERAJAAN TELAHPUN
MEMBUAT "appeal" SUPAYA KES INI DIDENGAR SEMULA,
SEMENTARA ITU TOLONG JANGAN PROTEST DIMANA MANA.
KAMI MINTA SUPAYA "KEDAULATAN UNDANG UNDANG" DIHORMATI OLEH SEMUA RAKYAT MALAYSIA.
TOLONG INGAT BAHAWA NEGARA KAMI AMAT DISANJUNGI SELURUH DUNIA INI SEBAGAI SEBUAH NEGARA YANG PRAGMATIC DAN TULUS IKHLAS.
KAMI 1M.
SEKIAN TERIMA KASIH RAKAYAT MALAYSIA.

AnOpinion

Anonymous said...

Rocky

The genesis of the matter is:

Herald wanted to use this word in Bahasa communication solely for Catholics.

The KDN permit for the Herald is clear - that it is for Catholics only and for the Bahasa version of the publication for people who are of that faith only.

It was never intended nor authorised to reach out to non-Catholics.

Neither was there any approval or leeway granted to the Church to use that term in any other forum.

The court ruling was extremely specific. Had the term been used elsewhere, the courts would have reprimanded Herald and would have withdrawn the approval given.

Have you ever seen any statement from UMNO leaders clarifying this to the masses in Peninsular Malaysia?

One wonders why these UMNO leaders could not clarify this to the masses, but instead resort to issuing statements like:

a. the government could not stop people from gathering at mosques tomorrow to protest against the High Court ruling in allowing the Herald to use the word "Allah".

b. We cannot stop them if they want to congregate in mosques

c. The use of the word 'Allah' may be used by other religions for their own agenda and confuse the Muslims (Defence Minister's 'menu'. Such a weakling he is - not fit to be a defence minister.)

d. non-Muslims in the country accept the fact that the word 'Allah' belongs to Muslims. (This is a Sharizat 'menu' dished out and forced down the throats of all non-Muslims in Malaysia)

And look at the way, some reacted aftre all the above statements.

That speaks volumes of how some Malaysians are led by cunning politicians to behave - hastily and illogically.

Without even realising that those in East Malaysia have been using this word for so long...and with no 'curbs' on such usage by the courts nor any 'opposition' from the 'custodians' of Islam in Sabah and Sarawak.

Now look at two other situations:

a. Selangor state anthem, which reads:

Duli Yang Maha Mulia
Selamat di atas takhta
Allah lanjutkan usia Tuanku
Rakyat mohon restu bawah Duli Tuanku
Bahagia selama-lamanya
Aman dan sentosa
Duli Yang Maha Mulia

b. Baca doa in public events and in Sekolah Kebangsaan.

In both instances above, the non-Muslims have accepted the fact that Allah is used and in the case of 1 above, non-Muslims also sing the state anthem. I remember doing that in primary school in K.L when the city was still under Selangor.

Non-Muslims dare not even squeal at these two instances but become more determined to know the difference and stick to their faiths despite such situations.

Tell us where is the actual problem.

PARAMESWARA

Anonymous said...

because everybody knows the church arson came before the demonstration and not the other way round

Rocky, the statement by Najib and Hisham allowing demonstation was made before the arson

Amused said...

A dialogue won't do. Remember the inter-faith dialogue? Our highly respected & regarded PDRM, instead of dispersing or arresting the illegally-assembled protesters, asked that the dialogue be ended, so as not to anger the protesters.

Praxis said...

1. Najib and Hisham may not have handled it well, but I agree with Bujai they did their best in the circumstances.
2. People have a right to express their feelings and frustrations, subject to not disturbing the public peace and convenience. The Opposition has abused this more than the BN. So, what credence or legitimacy does Lim Kit Siang's call have?
3. How do you stop someone from filing a suit or making a police report? There is no provision in the law for these. The Opposition has abused these process of democratic institutions.
4. Matters affecting Islam are within the purview of the King. Here the Christians who brought the suit say this is not a matter affecting Islam because it is within the boundary.
5. The Kings' message eloquently summaries what Dr Mahathir has said, that to maintain peace, the meaning and reference to "Allah" in the general context has to be regulated. The Christians are not isolated and the boundary is a permeable one, as good Dr knows.
6. Christians and Muslims are not one homogenous entity. Christians who brought the suit are minority with political ambitions. And, as Dr Mahathir said, when you bring suit suits, we can't predict what the uneducated or confused will do. And, moreover, who knows if those who did it were the same people who brought the suit. That's standard modus operandi of the Americans that Anwar favors.
7. The court appeal process is not over. It's gross interference with justice foe Najib to attempt to stop or interfere with the court process, which Wong Chun Wai and Bar Council statements seem to imply. What recourse does Najib have unless those who brought the suit withdrew it? Are not the Oppositions lawyers behind it?
8. Frustration in getting approvals are real because the policy makers have little influence over the implementation. But there is also some merit in the extreme caution that administrators exercise, because the churches have also been too fervent and insensitive in their operation. Loud proclamations like “Afflame for God and Neighbour! in a predominantly Muslim community are offensive and an embarrassment even to the more educated Christians.
9. The King has done his part and in a timely fashion.
10. And finally, why should Najib stop the appeal if he is confident of succeeding? Why prejudge his performance?

Anonymous said...

Just deport this Pakiam fella to Australia..

Let him face the Aussies & test the limit of their tolerancy and compared it with the Malays..

When they get their hand on him, let see how he work his talking out telling them he is a Catholic not an Indian and his mat salleh name is Murphy for all that they care..

Belum cuba belum tahu..belum rasa sebab itu suka buat haru biru..

:D muhahahahaha
-anti hindraf & ultra chingkies-

Anonymous said...

Malu, betul-betul malu. Everthing about "Allah" issue is so emotional. Nothing about the teaching of ISLAM. All we need to do is to set guildlines for the bahasa malaysia aducated christian
on the use of the word "Allah". Top ulama had clarified again and again there is no mention of non-muslim are not allowed to use the word "Allah". NOw, we are the laughing stock of the rest of the world. If the muslim in Malaysia is educated properly on religion matter, there shouln't be fear of them been mis-lead. Thousands of malay-muslim had attended missionary school and I do not see them get confuse and mislead. Some argue Malaysia is different. What is the different when come to ISLAM in Malaysia compare to the rest of the world.?. There are actually no different, all muslim prayed to the same "ALLAH".

GOD FEARING HUMAN

Anonymous said...

WOI PUNDEK PEMINATROCKY

CUBA KAU BACA YANG INI???

rocky tapi apa position dia? apa kata mat monggol NAJIB cadangan pakiam nak guna kalimah allah ni? dia sokong atau tidak? apa ulasan mat sembab MUHYIDDIN, mufti um_NO HARUSSANI tak jelas di sebut. MAJLIS ULAMA? TOYO TEMPE sebut apa? apa kata OTK dan CHUA SOILED LEG, KU SOO KOON, MIDAH rambo SG ROKAM? SHARIZAT pakistan? thambu SAMIVELU?

i hope u can send your reporters to each of them and get their direct quote. put em on tape, ask the opponenets of chua soiled leg for recording HELP.

peminatrock

Anonymous said...

The "Allah" Controversy : The Future Implications of the High Court DecisionShare


by Fatimah Zuhri

* Please forward/email this to as many people as you know. Feel free to translate to BM or to post/copy this in your websites/blogs. Feel free to send it to the newspaper. Please spread this message."

PART 1:

1. By now every single person in this country whether they are Muslim or not, would have realised that on 31st December 2009, Judge Lau Bee Lan have made a ruling to allow the usage of the word "Allah" to be published in The Herald publication.

2. Many of my Muslim friends who are bored/not interested in politics have asked me what is the big deal about this?

3. Let us take a closer look at the future implication of the High Court decision.

4. First of all, we have to understand how Legal System works.

5. When a judge makes a ruling/decision on a case they would tend to refer to previous decision made by the same Court.

6. For example (very simple example) :

a) On December 2000, Ali was caught of eating an apple which he took from his neighbour's garden. He was sentenced to pay RM500 and 1 day in jail.

b) On December 2009, Abu was caught with eating an orange which he took from his friend's refrigerator when he was visiting his friend's house.

c) When Abu is brought in front of Judge Fatimah, the Judge will check if there is any previous "similar" decision have been made. The prosecutor (peguam dakwa) will then recommend to the Judge to use the same setence which was made on December 2000 against Ali.

d) This is what we called as "precedent". Since there is an existing "precedent", Judge Fatimah will then sentenced Abu RM500 and 1 day jail.

e) If compared between Ali and Abu, it would look like Abu committed a lesser or different crime but in the eyes of the Law they both committed the same crime and the sentence should be the same.

7. Now let us go back to the High Court decision on the word "Allah". Judge Bee Lan decision was that The Herald is allowed to use the word "Allah" on the basis of "human rights".

8. Unfortunately, there are some highly irresponsible Muslim who say " So what?! ".

9. Well, let say a year from now, on 09.01.2011, a person of Hindu or Buddhist or ANY faith go to the court and say " I want the word Allah to be used to refer to my God ".

10. Since there is already a precedent (31.12.2009 - Judge Bee Lan decision), the court will then say OK using the same basis of "human rights" !

Anonymous said...

(continue...)

11. At the end of the day, everyone will then start to associate the name Allah with their God. It does not matter if the faith is Samawi based (Judaism, Christian and Islam) or non-Samawi based (Hinduism, Buddhism, Ayah Pin, etc...)

12. Again some Muslim will say "So what?".

13. Well, let say Ayah Pin followers go to the public and shouted, "Wahai orang ramai, Ayah Pin ialah Allah!"

14. Another example, a child who was born in a christian family. When this child grows up and see so many contradictions in the Bible (e.g. in 1 Corinthians 5:11 it clearly stated that a person should not drink alcohol, but in Luke Luke 7:33-34 it shows that Jesus/Isa a.s. did drink wine!), the child will grow up becoming an atheist (do not believe in any religion or any God).

15. When this child grew up to become an atheist, when his Muslim friend talk about Islam, he will ridiculed Islam and say " According to Malaysia's legal system, Allah in Islam and Christinanity is the same. So your religion (Islam) is no different from that of my parents (Christianity).

16. Worst, if he marries a Muslim women! I dare not imagine what will happen to their child...

17. If we did not have the High Court decision which equate Christian God = Allah, perhaps we can tell him,

"Look here my friend, my God is One God, He does not have a son nor does He has any parents, there is none equal or the same to Him. That my friend, is the difference between my religion and that of your parents!"

18. If there is no High Court decision which can equate Christian God = Allah, then the atheist can not say anything else.

19. Now, if you are tired after reading this 19 points, I suggest you have a break first, because there are another 15 points remaining. You can continue at a later time to read point 20-35.

Anonymous said...

(continue 3....)

PART 2 :

20. Let us take a look at another case. California Proposition 8 which was passed in November 2008 in the United States of America, a day after President Obama was elected to office.

21. Although the issue is different, the implication aspect of it is the same.

22. California Proposition 8 was a proposition to change the constitutional amendment of the United States.

23. A year before (in 2007) the California Supreme Court made a decision that equates Homosexual and Lesbian marriages = Heterosexual marriages.

24. Homosexual marriage is men marrying men and Lesbian marriage is women marrying women. While heterosexual marriage is between a men and a women.

25. The decision by the Court was made under the same basis which our own High Court made the decision on "Allah", which is "Human rights".

26. Imagine my dear readers, how can a marriage between a men and a women is equal to a marriage between homosexuals and lesbian? How can a homosexual or a lesbian couple can have a child? If half of the US population are involved in these sick marriage, in 20 years time, American population will be cut by half.

27, These were the questions raise all around California. The Christians, Muslim, Hindu, Buddhist and Jewish Californinans were upset by this decision.

28. What did they do? They held campaigns, pressured the state government, pressured the federal government and many more.

29. A year later, due to the pressure by the common people, the Court had to hold another round of proposition.

Anonymous said...

(continue 4....)

30. On the evening of November 4th 2008, the majority of the Californian people rejoiced and celebrated at the announcement that the proposition to reject the notion normal marriage = Homosexual/Lesbian marriage has succeded.

31. Anyone who have been to the United States, should know that California is like Bangsar. The Californian people are the most liberal people in the United States. Yet they manage to reject the sick notion that normal marriage between a men and a women = homosexual marriages.

32. Dear gentle readers, unfortunately in Malaysia, we have some Muslim who wants to make a political issue out of this. Irresponsible people such as Dato Seri Anwar Ibrahim (PKR) and YB Khalid Samad (PAS) wants to use this issue to gain non-muslim votes for their political party (Pakatan Rakyat)in the up-coming General Election.

33. This is really unfortunate. If one read and understood my points above, you would now realise the future impact of the High Court decision.

34. Currently, the Prime Minister Dato Seri Najib have asked the Home Minister Dato Seri Hishammudin to make an appeal so that the decision can be over-turned. We congratulate this excellent decision by the Government of Malaysia! However we have to continue our campaign. Please do not act in anger. Peaceful campaign and peaceful protest is the way forward.

35. Last, I urge that everyone of us can understand the issue. It is not just about losing a "word". It is more than that. It is for the future of our children and grand children. If we do not defend, a year from now every religion will call their God as Allah. Perhaps who knows, 5 years from now we will have Homosexual marriages as well. Do we want this to happen?

" Tepuk dada tanyalah selera..."

Thank you.

Salam,
Fatimah Zuhri.

* Fatimah Zuhri is a non partisan writer who writes for the well being and love for her children, grandchildren and for her beloved nation, Malaysia

Anonymous said...

Rocky has been planning this for 2 years now with that sufi mahaguru 58 whom Jakim consider deviationist:

The government-controlled mainstream media and pro-Umno Blogs are beginning to spin rebuttals that Umno is behind the ongoing church attacks. Actually, as the following will prove, the plan to hit back at the Catholics for being ‘obstinate’ about using Allah in the Herald was mooted two years ago. And the government clearly has its hands dirty in the matter. In fact, the government even financed the ‘operation’

The invitation to me was relayed by Rocky Bru @ Ahiruddin Atan, President of All Blogs to discuss amongst many other topics, the problem being created by the publishers of the Malaysian Roman Catholic Magazine 'Herald' who remain obstinate in using the term 'Allah' to represent their idea of God in their Malay section of their Christian magazine.

Fellow blogger Nuraina Samad who blogs at http://nursamad.blogspot.com, the daughter of National Laureate, Allahyarham Tan Sri Samad Ismail, was also there and two other bloggers who wish to remain anonymous.

http://www.malaysia-today.net/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=29557:still-deny-that-umno-is-behind-the-church-attacks&catid=20:no-holds-barred&Itemid=100087#comments

-siapalagi

Anonymous said...

Today, Wong Chun Wai wants to talk about peace, harmony, tolerance, let common sense prevail, let us become brothers and sisters, we are all fellow Malaysians, and all that fucking crap. But for eleven years Wong Chun Wai, MCA and The Star have embarked on an anti-Islamic State campaign. Now you want to do a U-turn?

Anonymous said...

Sam @ 2.40pm,

Even as a young boy I knew that the word 'Tuhan' in the national anthem is used over the word 'Allah' to accomodate many other chinese and indian friends of mine. Even as a young boy I was not as confused as you are. That the word 'Tuhan' is used instead in our national anthem clearly shows that 'Tuhan' is the generally accepted word for God in this country.

Fazilis

Anonymous said...

Kena SOS Mat Ezam, Ustaz Candra, Si Katak Bentung, Perkasa,.........BOLEH JALANLAH!

Anonymous said...

BIK MAMA kita tu 1st lady m'sia x pakai tudung bikin malu aje.nak harap dekat malaun macam ni ke pertahankan agama. pakai songkok tinggi buat round kepala lembu boleh la...muuahahahahahah

Anonymous said...

Umno WAS not racist. I hold my respects to the founding fathers of Umno, such as Hussein Onn, Tunku Abdul Rahman, Dr Ismail Abdul Rahman, who treated all races fairly. That is not the case now.

Anonymous said...

I know my Malaysian history front and back, thank you very much. I know for a fact that from the late 60s and 70s onwards, Umno turned into a racist, fascist bully. It progressively worsened until it became the nasty, abysmal, corrupt and rotten quagmire of politicians that it is now.

It is said that one should be careful of the monsters one creates or helps to create, as that monster might one day turn against its creators.

Short of a miracle - such as the emergence of real political leadership - only spending time out of power and in that meditative political dog-house of evolutionary wilderness known as 'political oblivion' can perhaps help to change/reform Umno back to how it was originally

As John Lennon wisely said, 'Life happens to you while you are busy making other plans.' So, too, it seems with history.

Anonymous said...

Umno used to have respectable, gentleman leaders like Tunku Abdul Rahman. Its founding members were humble patriots who wanted to improve the lot of their communities and the country.

Today Umno Baru is filled with greedy opportunistic businessmen who enter politics to acquire lucrative contracts, who seek not to foster understanding and goodwill but to appeal to the bigotry and fear of their support base. The sincere leaders of calibre in Umno are long gone.

Your attempt at damage control has failed, dear Prime Minister Najib Abdul Razak. It's all empty rhetoric.

Anonymous said...

Mr PM, you keep drawing examples from the past Umno. That is dead and gone. The new Umno is racist and tramples on the rights of the minorities.

Anonymous said...

I definitely agree with Najib that Umno is not a racist party. Nor are they extremists. They just know how to use race and religion to achieve their goals. Just look at how effective they are in using race and religion to fan chaos throughout Malaysia.

The only reason Najib is starting to talk otherwise is because things have gotten out of hand under his watch - his strategy has backfired and he wants out.

Anonymous said...

When a party president for more than two decades had said that his own party Umno is a racist party; Najib, what have you done to help erase that negative perception from the mind of people outside of Umno? Nothing.

Instead, we witness one incident after another which remind us again and again that Umno is getting more racist each day. The cow-head incident, the handling of demonstrations, the calls for 'bakar gereja', 'pendatang', etc.

You need not have to say that Umno is not racist. Just act to prevent these racist acts and refrain from being seen as blatantly condoning those acts. The resources and power are available and in your hands.

Of course, it would be quite easy to say that you condemn those despicable acts after the damages have already been inflicted. The physical damages can be repaired, but the negative impression made by those acts will be very difficult to forget. Not with any amount of ringgit and apologies.

looes74 said...

Praxis,
Again, I have reminded you again. Sabah & Sarawak have seperate agreement with Malaysia when they join Malaysia. Second, it would be extremely unfair to put Raja2 Melayu under stress of presiding over the matter affecting both moslems & non moslems. I have said before if Raja2 Melayu given the free hand to judge the matter in accordance to the constituition, you would be very surprised that it would be in line with Lau Bee Lan.
Coming back to East Malaysia, according to your logic, the best fella would be Sultan of Brunei. Ah so then again

Is Malaysia part of Brunei? Or Otherwise?

Hence, the greatest paradox of all. The tangle web. The only way I am afraid is for moslems to back down.

Praxis,
I am sorry. As the situation has become so complicated now that the only solution is for moslems to be bite the bullet.
Back to status quo. I am sure something can work if christians, sikhs & others to use Allah. Parameswara has said that Allah can only be used in BM text strictly for christians only. With enforcement of these Acts

1) Publication Act
2) Sedition Act
3) Public Harmony Act

Problem would have been solved. It's actually up to the moslems. Be magnanimous! Saladin too has been magnanimous too. It's time

Praxis,
The catholics are merely stating their rights. Allah has been used even before independence. Plus, Indonesians are using that too. Khir's father would have smacked Khir for this
NO MAN IS AN ISLAND. Need to have a semblance of Rule of Law

Anonymous said...

-anti hindraf & ultra chingkies-

Why Australia? Assam

Hantaq balik kat kampung Tok Nek Moyang dia kasi Assam ajar sama dia;

http://www.christiantelegraph.com/issue4638.html

PERWIRA

eddy said...

1.Ya Bro, on hindsight, I agree with Bujai and Praxis that under the circumstances Najib and the under instruction Hisham did well to keep things under wraps. What we need at this moment are politicial leaders with cool heads who does not jump to conclusions too easily. I would have wished that Hisham took the opportunity to cekup some political troublemakers under the ISA but for better or for worse he resisted that temptation though.

2.Anyway I think Dr Mahathir is right in that the Courts could not solve this problem completely, it is best that there are further talks between Majlis Fatwa Kebangsaan, IKIM, JAKIM with the Council of Churches guided by the statement from the Agung on the "ALLAH' issue of course.

3.It would greatly help if the suggestion from Datuk Clarence Bongkos Malakun urging the Herald Publishers to withdraw their claim against the KDN for the sake of peace and harmony is taken up by Father Murphy Pakiam.This will certainly reduce temperatures a lot, enough to create an atmosphere of TRUST so that the relevant parties can sit down and talk in pragmatic terms to find a lasting solution.

4.Lastly, I would say Lim Kit Siang is the ultimate example in Malaysian politics for some one who is without equal for fishing in silty waters. He is at his best when he complains, whines or blame other people and other parties preferably from Barisan on any ills that visits the nation. Notice when he blames or whines he would most times never offer any concrete solution to the problem.I think his mind is hard wired to complain, whine and blame only.

Anonymous said...

It all started by racist UMNO to show their pigs the Ketuanan position they are in.

How can you ban a word from being used when this word does not belong to you? How can you ban a word for being used when others are using it long before the the word Malaya and Malaysia? How can you ban a word which is used by so many countries and people around the world for centuries? Stupid, stupid, stupid.

UMNO is death and they are in the last stage of life, they have no ideas.

This problem is started by UMNO and let see how UMNO is going to resolve it.

Anonymous said...

masalahnya.. kenapa majlis fatwa berdiam diri dari dulu sampai sekarang?

Kerana sehingga sekarang tidak terdapat sebarang penyalahgunaan dan penghinaan kalimah tersebut kan?

Apa yang menjadi masalah sekarang ialah parti UMNO yang ingin menjadi hero dan menonjolkan watak ultra alim terhadap orang Islam dan menarik balik sokongan orang Islam di negara ini dengan memanipulasikan segala 'kekuatan' yang ada pada mereka.

macamana pula penggunaan kalimah 'takbir' yang di tulis 'TAKE BEER' oleh penyokong UMNO dan dipaparkan didada akhbar2 tempatan.

terbakar juga hati, namun apa boleh buat sebab ini kerja orang2 yang mengatakan diri mereka Islam. Pemerintah 'ultra alim' kita pun berdiam diri.

Asyik nak jaga sensitiviti kaum dan bangsa lain, sensitiviti agama sendiri terlepas. hampeh!

minah ronggeng

Anonymous said...

masalahnya.. kenapa majlis fatwa berdiam diri dari dulu sampai sekarang?

Kerana sehingga sekarang tidak terdapat sebarang penyalahgunaan dan penghinaan kalimah tersebut kan?

Apa yang menjadi masalah sekarang ialah parti UMNO yang ingin menjadi hero dan menonjolkan watak ultra alim terhadap orang Islam dan menarik balik sokongan orang Islam di negara ini dengan memanipulasikan segala 'kekuatan' yang ada pada mereka.

macamana pula penggunaan kalimah 'takbir' yang di tulis 'TAKE BEER' oleh penyokong UMNO dan dipaparkan didada akhbar2 tempatan.

terbakar juga hati, namun apa boleh buat sebab ini kerja orang2 yang mengatakan diri mereka Islam. Pemerintah 'ultra alim' kita pun berdiam diri.

Asyik nak jaga sensitiviti kaum dan bangsa lain, sensitiviti agama sendiri terlepas. hampeh!

minah ronggeng

Anonymous said...

BATU/ anonymous 7:03PM,

Hey, Bodoh...

Rocky blame siapa saja yang dia fikir salah.

Kit Siang yang suka cocok orang berdemonstrate, ber-protest.

yang orang islam "protest" luar masjid, apa salah-nya? bukan nak buat macam HINDRAF...

Itu-pun, semua orang kata okay-lah, biar-lah...let them express themselves.

Anwar Ibrahim -- konon btak benarkan penyokong Pakatan protest isu ini.

Apa maksud Anwar? jangan protes tentang Herald atau soking Herald?

Makna nya JANGAN PROTES TENTANG HERALD.

Najib memang biarkan kita demonstrate atau protest -- di stadium -- macam tentang ISA.
Tak janggal-lah dia kata , "protest tu ok asal, apa salah-mya".

KAMU penyokong BEBAL BENGAP Pakatan memang buta dan pekak.

Anonymous said...

parameswara,

another anti_govt, anti-Malay remarks from you... sorry if i am so accusatory because it is the ilk of you that are fanning the fire .

- you are really stupid. Don;t you know that there is always a congregation at mosques. they congregate anyway.
so, let them. so let them.

Najib didn't tell them they can protest in the city.

-- outside the mosque-lah stupid.
-- and it wsa peaceful.

-- not like the pro-anwar supporters during the reformasi. Now that was something else.

people like you are so BIGOTED, AS BIGOTED AS THE UMNO GOONS YOU HATE.

Anonymous said...

KIT Siang has the standing to talk about political manupulation adn political exploitation and political capitalisation blahblahblah --HE IS THE MASTER OF ALL THE POLITICAL SKULLDUGGERY.

so, believe him when he talks on the subject.

see how he quickly blames UMNO, nAJIB AND THE BN. IF HE COULD HE'D ALSO BLAME THE KING AND COUNTRY.

we don't even know who the arsonists are.

Even how stupid i am, i'd say that this whole thing is not good for the PM or the BN.

I may not support the BN or PM but, to lay the blame squarely on the PM becos ??? becos what? he said it was okay to protest.

Bro, this whole mess certainly gives ammunition to PAKATAN.

I dare not blame anyone for the church arson.

if i were to blame anyone i'd say PAKATAN did it. to give the PM a hell of a time.

It is PAKATAN that's spreading hatred.
You think Umno is racist -- read the pro-Pakatan blogs-lah.

they're all out for anarchy. stoking stoking stoking.

Anonymous said...

Political scientist Dr Faisal Syam Hazis of Universiti Malaysia Sarawak (Unimas) says : “The use of Allah by non-Muslims has already been embedded in East Malaysian society for more than 100 years. It has never been an issue. So why are these peninsula Muslims suddenly jumping up and down over it?”

Anonymous said...

The battle might be between the Roman Catholic Church and the government over the right to use “Allah” but the ones most affected are those in Sabah and Sarawak.

As Sabah leader Tan Sri Bernard Dompok pointed out, they worship in Bahasa Malaysia as its the national language and Bibles are in that language because it is not feasible to print or translate it to their various dialects.

More importantly, “Allah” is their word for God, the same as for the Malays, who borrowed it from the Arabs.

Semantics aside, the people in Borneo do not see the fuss or problem over the name of God.

The Muslims in Sarawak, Jack (who asked that only his first name be used) reasoned, were not just tolerant of other faiths. They have accepted non-Muslims as a daily fact of life the same way parents accept that their children have different personalities.

A government servant, he had earlier said he hoped the spate of attacks against churches in the peninsula would not spill over into Sarawak.

Though he was upset over the broken windows of the Anglican Good Shepherd Church in Lutong, Miri, Jack’s faith in Sarawak’s Muslims has not been shaken.

“I hugely believe that this is an isolated case, and most Sarawakian Muslims and also Sarawakians are surprised that such an incident could happen at all in Sarawak,” said Jack. Many of the people interviewed for this article asked that their names be changed due to the volatility of the topic.

It is this renowned bond between the non-Muslims and Muslims of Sarawak and Sabah that has often been held up by peninsula politicians as the ultimate model of race-relations.

Yet while these politicians speak highly of East Malaysia’s ethnic unity, they seldom make any serious attempt to get peninsular Malaysians to emulate it.

Conversely, says Sabahans and Sarawakians interviewed by The Malaysian Insider, the insular race, religion and language politics of the peninsula have often been imported and forced upon East Malaysians for as long as the states have been part of the federation.

And this is what unsettles them when it comes to the turmoil about who gets to use “Allah”: that again, the peninsula-centric Federal government is telling them to change an elemental aspect of their lives that has never before been a problem.

In other words, says a Sabah Government officer, it was never a problem until the “Semenanjung” people made it a problem.

Anonymous said...

the anti-Najib pack has this common theme "laughing stock of the world"

or "Malaysia is no longer seen as a moderate Islamic country"

See, they dutifully obey their paymasters

Nothing can be more crystal clear that this is their subversive INTENT

skilgannon1066 said...

Idiotic comments aplenty abound with regard to this subject.

In spite of all their bravado, the "ultras" have not understood the fundamental message - which is that the international community will not let them get away with their "fun and games". Or why would the government try to sell the message that "semua ok" to the foreign diplomatic community?


Incidentally, for idiotic comments, the one attributed to the Sec Gen of the Home Ministry takes some beating.

Datuk Seri Mahmood Adam said, when some foreign diplomats asked why the word "Allah" could not be used by Christians in Malaysia, when it is widely used in places like Indonesia and the Middle East:

"Be fair, you have to compare apples to apples, oranges to oranges. Our landscape is different from other countries". He said that Malays in Malaysia are "different" from Muslims in other countries (as reported by the Spore Straits Times, Jan 12).

Really, ah? How is the Malaysian "landscape" different from other countries? How are Malays in Malaysia different from Muslims in other countries? You mean that the Malays in Malaysia follow a different variety of Islam than, say, Muslims in Indonesia?

And how does one explain the views voiced by Din Syamsuddin (chairman of Muhammadiyah, the second biggest Muslim group in Indonesia. He is also deputy chairman of the Indonesian Ulama Council) and Solahuddin Wahid (deputy chairman of Nahdlatul Ulama, the biggest Muslim group in Indonesia) as reported in the same newspaper?

Or the views expressed by Ichwan Situmeang, an activist from Muhammadiyah, who said 'the use of the word "Allah" by Christians had never been an issue with Muslims in Indonesia. They would not be confused if their Christian friends were to utter "Allah" or "Tuhan Allah", nor would they be suspicious that the term was being used in an attempt to get Muslims to convert to Christianity' (as reported in the Spore Straits Times, Jan 12).

Ah, yes - the issue of conversions and "confusion". Is it a one-way street or a two-way street?

Anonymous said...

Skilly++13,

Semua Beres!

Yang duk garu kepala sekarang, itu Aney sama Ah Soh..

A man of God, running to a Malaysian Ah Soh Judge, to confirm their God's name on the Birth Certificate!

By the way Skilly+++13,

Bibles translated in Tamil and Mandarin, what do these Nationals address their Christian Lords? Tolong confirm kat I sikit.

Also the Bibles from Japan, African/ French/Spanish etc speaking countries, in their Bibles they give what names?

PERWIRA

jeremiah said...

why are people assuming that the perpetrators are Muslims?
and wny are muslims and muslim leaders saying that the dastardly act by these arsonists are un-Islamic?

first -- there's nothing yet to prove that these perpatrators are muslims, and

such dastardly acts are UN-islamic, UN-christian, UN-hindu and UN-buddhist, UN-judaic/jewish and UN-Taoist.

the perpetrators are, to my mind either PAID CROOKS, run-of-the-mill vandals/ trouble makers or/and EVIL people.

NO religion encourages or promotes such dastardly act.

Anonymous said...

dear rocky,

those protesters at masjid negara have done nothing compared to the stuff uttered by online debators in malaysia today, malaysiakini as well as in the blogs -- your included.

they were protesters, yes. but as protesters, their action was nothing like the protesters' in the marches that took place in our recent past/history.

that is why i cannot understand people -- and I have noticed the pro-Herald side, blaming the PM and everyone else when clearly they are themselves fanning the fire.

i suppose these people -- and I have to assume, sponsored by someONE or spome ORGANISATION/BODY, have a very obvious agenda -- to destablize the country.

what else could it be?

marah tapi sayang rocky said...

brother,

itu-lah. yang hang percaya sangat MALAYSIA TODAY DULU DAN BERSEKONGKOL DENAGN SI RAJA PETRA, apasal?

kita dah warning hang, raja petra tu has no principles, depa tu mercenary.

he is a liar,-lah, brother and he has no qualms about fitnah-ing orang.

right now, you seem to be a blogger that is in the way of PAKATAN.
THE MESS NOW GIVES pakatan mileage. and they must siftly create the perception that the najib and the BN are to be blamed.

and you, objectively speaking, seem to be giving it straight. THEY DON'T LIKE IT.

KITA DAH BAGITAU hang about all that rubbish RPK was and still churning, hang baik juga dengan depa.

you realized too late, bro! shouldn't have baik dengan setan-setan ni in the first place.

HAH! padan muka hang depa bantai hang, making VERY VICIOUS AND DANGEROUS accusation of you.

Ha, kalu depa boleh tibai rosmah and najib...hang collateral damage, saja..

Anonymous said...

I am a devout Muslim, a Malaysian Malay and an East Malaysian. It goes without saying that I strongly condemn the attacks. Although I am now a professional working for a Malaysian company in Manchester, UK, I have previously lived in the Peninsula Malaysia for several decades.

My interpretation is that it is all a matter of the language and the ‘cultures’ in which Islam and Christianity are each practised in Malaysia. In the Malaysian Malay language, unlike in Bahasa Indonesia, the word ‘Allah’ is the specific NAME for God in Islam. When a Malaysian Malay, particularly a Peninsular Malay, says the word, it does not refer to a NOUN like ‘tuhan’. When a Muslim or Christian Arab says the word ‘Allah’, he/she is for the most part talking about a NOUN.

You see? This is why Malaysian Malays have a special attachment to the word ‘Allah’ that Indonesian and Arab Muslims do not have. (In fact, I know that when Muslim Arabs go to UK, for example, the word ‘Allah’ suddenly becomes a special NAME to them so that they can differentiate their religious identity from the Christians around them.) You have to take into account cultural relativism here. The context is Malaysia, at this particular period in time, given its peculiar religious and racial dynamics. The history of the word outside of Malaysia and at different historical periods has no bearing here.

This does not necessarily mean that Malaysian Malays are better Muslims that Arabs or Indonesians. This also does not mean that Malays practice a ‘different Islam’ than Arabs, that they are not part of the ummah. It’s just that the language they use is different. The connotation of the word ‘Allah’ is different for Malays. People approach religion in the language that is comfortable to them. (For example, some say that ‘keling’ is a legitimate word to refer to Indians, particular those from the Kalinga region. No, because the word has a different and racist connotation in the inter-racial context of Malaysian life. You have to take that into account and you have to respect people’s feelings and sensitivities, even when you have no real intention to cause offense. We live in a society after all.)

This does not conflict with monotheism either. Islam and Christianity,despite having a so-called Abrahamic genealogy, are still different religions. The God understood by Islam is different from the God understood by Christians. Of course, there is one God but Muslims and Christians worship him differently. So the Muslim’s “Allah” and the Christian’s “Allah” are different. This does not mean someone is trying to “own” God by claiming stake on his name.

Get it? The argument is very subtle and, truth be told, very academic. That joker Khairul Faiz Morat on Aljazeera the other day failed to explain the position carefully. He can't even speak good English!

(to be continued)

-Ridza

Anonymous said...

(con’t)
On the other hand:

The same argument can be made on the side of the Christians who have for decades used the word ‘Allah’ to refer to their God in their Bibles. Like us, they are also attached to the word. Maybe some Muslims might say that their use of the word ‘Allah’ is, strictly-speaking wrong, and should have been ‘tuhan’. But to them ‘Allah’ and ‘tuhan’ are both NOUNS that mean the same God.

My understanding is that, many decades ago, the missionaries started using the word ‘Allah’ based on their ignorance of mistranslating the Malay language when trying to explain their religion to the Muslims. Tapi nasi sudah menjadi bubur. The East Malaysian Christians of today should not be faulted for the mistakes of the predecessors. They are already attached to the word, so let them use word. I don’t think there is some huge conspiracy involved. They mean no offense. I have lived in Sarawak for years and I know that they only do missionary work to other Christians and non-Muslims. (Yes, there are one or two bad apples, but these rarely happen – and they know they will get into HUGE trouble if they try to directly proselytize to the Muslim.) I have seen Dayak and Malay villages located side by side but the missionaries never cross the border. Don’t worry! Benda ni senang pantau.

Sabahan & Sarawakian Christians should be allowed to use the word so long as it is a continuation of part of their decades-long use and tradition of religious practice. For those Christians in the Peninsular, tak payah lah nak mula-mula.

So The Herald, which is a National publication, should drop using the word, despite their claims to only selling their newspapers to Christians. Don’t you know this is a sensitive issue? Please respect your Muslim brethren.

Tun Mahathir is right that this should never have been brought to court and made into a Federal issue. Arbitrating about religion in the courts, and by a non-Muslim judge, offends me. And I am sure that having a Muslim minister banning the word and doing the same thing to non-Muslims is also offensive to them. Kalau boleh tak patut bising-bising sebenarnya. The BN government should have let those churches in Sabah Sarawak to use the word quietly without disturbing anyone. Sarawakian Muslims have known about it for years but there have never been any fights. BN should have resolved the matter behind closed doors. They put the Christians into a corner so they had to resort to the law, which is not equipped to deal with such subtle cultural difference between Peninsular and East Malaysia.

-Ridza

skilgannon1066 said...

perwira

Glad to oblige. Although I am not a linguist, some research has found the following words for "God" in different languages:

Tamil - "Bagwan" or "Bagavan"
Mandarin - "Shen" or "Shang Di (Great King in Heaven) or "Ye He Hua" (Jehovah or Yahweh) or "Zhu" (Lord)
Japan - "Kami" (this could be wrong)
French - "Dieu"
Spanish - "Dios"
German - "Gott"

So, what is the point you are trying to make? That God has many names? Please. lah - tolong sadikit to enlighten us.

Anonymous said...

dmh1876

Complaining is simple coz it does not take much effort but when given the chance, only then they know how difficult it is in running a State and beyond comprehension when running a country.

The roots of the problem in this country lately is that people been allowed to speak freely too freely and the consequence is that most of them create havoc and in the end offended others Malaysian in the process.

We are a multiracial country which has been living in harmony for all this years.

Under the constitution in ordered to classify as a Malay one of the requirement that you must be a MUSLIM for which make out more than 60% of the population.

Knowing well that the word ALLAH is synonym and commonly used by MUSLIM in this country so why the Herald all of sudden want to used the word ALLAH which in fact is uncommonly used in their publication in the first place.

Well some may argue that Christian in Sabah and Sarawak has been using it all this years, well to me that it is not the roots of the problem, the problem crop up when all of sudden Herald want also to use it in their publication.

I would like to quote what Shad Saleem Faruqi wrote in the STAR 13/1/2010:

"Other than in Arab Penisula and in Sabah and Sarawak, the word ALLAH has never been part of Christian discourse or sermon. Certainly in west Malaysia the word was not part of christian vocabulary up to now. The herald's new found love for Arabic words is indeed very touching but one cannot fail to note that the import of Arabic words is rather selective"

This is the question of sensitivity, as Malay is by nature an accommodating race that why other races is able to be the richest man, billionaire, bankers, Chief Minister, Minister, Excos, Fed Coa Hc Judges, High rank in the army-navy-air force-police, DGs etc and yet the non-malays still say they are being treated unfairly and for that the Malay has to further compromise whatever rights they have even though it is guaranteed under the constitution.

I truly welcome the “Titah” from the Sultan of Selangor on this issue, “DAULAT TUANKU”

skilgannon1066 said...

Meanwhile, in Singapore (remember the place, Rocky?), the govt has proposed a "double-barrelled race option for children" (Spore Straits Times, Jan 13).

According to a speech by a Senior Minister of State in the Spore Parliament yesterday, parents from different races can soon pick "double-barrelled" race classifications such as Indian-Chinese, Malay-Indian, Chinese-Malay or Eurasian-Chinese, for their newborn children.

In making the choices, the parents will have to decide which of the two races is to come first when registering the child's birth at the ICA.

The minister said this is to help the child identify better and be "culturalised" with a particular race.

He pointed out that the number of mixed marriages in Spore is increasing. In 2007, 16.4 per cent of 24,000 marriages were inter-racial.

However, he noted that the record of race at birth is provisional. It is recorded officially only on the child's identity card, which he or she is required to obtain at age 15. Also, changes of race declaration can be made at any time by the parents or by the child when he or she is no longer a minor.

See how they do these things in Singapore? One of the ways a secular state makes policy decisions, with no vested interests or vociferous lobbies to placate!

skilgannon1066 said...

Din Syamsuddin (chairman of Muhammadiyah and deputy chairman of the Indonesian Ulama Council):

"In this globalised world, people can be influenced by what is happening elsewhere...We have issued a reminder to all our members and Muslims at large to be tolerant and not to be influenced by what is happening in Malaysia...It is only through dialogues and interaction among people of different faiths that we can preserve religious harmony in the country."

Solahuddin Wahid (deputy chairman of Nahdlatul Ulama):

"Don't be influenced by the incidents in Malaysia. It is against the teachings of our religion and the laws of our state."

Datuk Seri Mahmood Adam (secretary-general of Malaysia's Home Ministry):

"Be fair, you have to compare apples to apples, oranges to oranges. Our landscape is different from other countries"

So, Malaysia is an "apple" and Indonesia an "orange"?

It is strange, then, how politicians and ministers on both sides can refer to the "abang-abang" relationship between Malaysia and Indonesia. Or is it "abang-abang" only in certain areas?

Anonymous said...

Hahaha

skillgannon's only skill is to quote other people's opinions basically becoz he has no analytical ability

then he arrogantly pass off these comments as products of his intellect (close to zero)

anyone can deduce that he is the real IDIOT here for NOT being able to see the different contexts

some sources revealed that singapore churches were told not to use 'Allah' in their sermons

now what do you make of this instruction, hey sillygoon??

Anonymous said...

what is it that Najib has done? except to say that it's ok for people to protest...

is that so wrong?

those very people attacking for saying that are the very people asking for the government to allow them to demonstrate and protest against every damn thing.

and how did the msulims protest at masjid negara?

not even 30 minutes...just gathered peacefully.

that's what the pakatan fanatics and pro-Herald people are attacking najib for?

i see in the social media, people like elizabeth wong attacking Umno guys for flaming the fire.

here's the thing -- kit siang blames najib for the what's happening is ok?

some Umno small fry blames Pakiam, the whole jimbang of pakatan takes goddam issue with it...

Rockybru posts the issue and people simply cannot accept. Then again those hentaming you are really PAKATAN cybertroopers.

to me, Rocky's postings are nothing compared to the columnists and opionists in MALAYSIAKINI and MALAYSIAN INSIDER who outrightly are blaming Umno and BN and Najib etc etc..

like i said --- what did najib do?

Anonymous said...

IT's THE COMMUNISTS, i tell you...

this is the work of the communists!!!

NURAINA A SAMAD said...

rocky,
if i may.

to: anon/3.42PM (siapalagi),

the meeting with zahid hamidi's office is not a secret.

in fact, soon after the meeting took place, a blogger (can't remember who) reported it.
He put a sinister twist to it and i was quite surprised by that.

now, RPK has further twisted it. but that's not odd.

what is odd is that people -- usually pro- opposition bloggers -- think it's a crime and unacceptable that people like me and rocky should be meeting the likes of Mahaguru, and other "unaccceptable personalities" who are either linked to the BN or are BN members.

we were and still are journalists. we meet all sorts. and when we became bloggers, it seemed that so many people were and stilla re) willing to meet with us.

as for mahaguru -- and he would "convert" us?

such bigots you people are.

that part about the meeting is true.

but that bit about our anti-church plan (whatever the plan was to have been) -- now that is a lie. and a vicious one.

here's the thing. if i had any doubt of the veracity of stories published by malaysia today, well now, with what it has published so irresponsibly, i am convinced that malaysia today has no qualms to publishes lies. vicious lies.

bukan spin lagi. fitnah.

thank you, rocky.

Anonymous said...

Skilly+++13,

You ciakap pasai Indonesia. You tak perhati Indon PATI kat Malaysia ker? I know one working around our neighbourhood, kasi nam Mahani binti Supandi (born in one private clinic).

Anak mau sekolah, baru SEDAR tersilap bohong, Mykad dan surat beranak bapa, nama LAIN, tak sama, Andy.

Can you imagine, pasai nama, sanggup went through all legalities, to ADOPT his own daughter, so she can go to school, and obtain a mykad later.

So now, eldest daughter became ADOPTED daughter, all because nama sebenar atas surat beranak anak mau that "local touch".

See, just like your Gods, change name ikut citarasa setempat? Nanti followers yang tak faham bahasa ingatkan Adopted God pulak!!

Anyway, why talk about Indonesia. I am sure you are not from Indonesia.

Skill+++13,

What do you think will happen if all these were to happen in India and China? Rasa you, will it ever reach the Courts at all?

PERWIRA

e n g said...

''See, just like your Gods, change name ikut citarasa setempat? Nanti followers yang tak faham bahasa ingatkan Adopted God pulak!! ''

Well u will need little bit more info on Christianity to understand that.
I can read both chinese and english bibles, without getting confuse. Although they don't call God the same 'word' literally.
Things are not that confusing afterall if you are willing to spend 1 or 2 minutes to understand the issue.

''Anyway, why talk about Indonesia. I am sure you are not from Indonesia.''

Many ppl draw examples from Indo or Arab because they think that Islam is the same practise everywhere in the world. Unless you can tell me they are different?
I do not have enough knowledge in Islam to comprehend that.
Also many people believe that the Malays in Indonesia and Malaysia are very similar, so they don't understand why this is not an issue in Indo and not consufing for them - the biggest muslim country in the world.

''What do you think will happen if all these were to happen in India and China? Rasa you, will it ever reach the Courts at all?''

OK if you don't feel like talking about Indonesia, but willing to talk about the further countries like China / india....
China wouldn't allow the smallest protest in anyway, would it?? so in the case of protests in mosque, what do you think they would do?
also China gov is allegadly to be atheist, why would they want to serve the ban to Herald at the first place???
As for India.... not sure as i haven't got time to find out...

Anonymous said...

skilgannon1066 @ 12:07 PM says

"See how they do these things in Singapore? One of the ways a secular state makes policy decisions, with no vested interests or vociferous lobbies to placate!"

My analysis = the mother is chinese and father is non-chinese. This double-barrelled race policy is to ensure that the chinese remains the majority.

Another policy is not to standardise pre-primary education becoz it is expensive and the Malays will be the ones penalised. Most poor Malay children enter primary one with a handicap as they did not benefit from expensive pre-primary education.

Also the HBD race quota is RACIST - as it ensures that the Malays do not form a majority in any constituency.

So you see, sillymoron is a pathetically STUPID ignoramous to the highest degree, extremely naive and easily brainwashed.

Ask yourself why are the Malaysian workers governed by the same CPF withdrawal laws as Singaporeans - isn't this political, moron??

Do go for a brain scan - countless crippling virus in there.

Anonymous said...

skily+++13

Kam sia kam sia,

Say there's a world conference, and all these Nationals attended Sunday prayers in the same Church, kat Kampung I, the Aney fella address his Lord to these foreigners as;

"Allah" or
"Bagwan" or "Bagavan" or
Shen" or "Shang Di or "Ye He Hua" or "Zhu" or
"Kami" or
"Dieu" or
"Dios" or
"Gott" or what?

Say none of these people can understand English..

PERWIRA

Anonymous said...

The embattled Herald publishes in English, Bahasa Malaysia, Chinese and Tamil according to its website.

Can someone please enlighten me how God is referred to in these languages in relation to spelling and pronunciation?

Correct me if I am wrong, but don't tell me all the dispute thus far has been solely confined to th...e use of a name/word in Bahasa Malaysia alone? If so why?

- HITMAN -

skilgannon1066 said...

Anon 1:17 PM

Simple, lah. If you have attended Masses in Catholic churches in Singapore, you will know that for most Masses, the liturgy is conducted entirely in English.

BUT Catholic churches in Singapore also have Masses said in Mandarin, Korean, French, German, Spanish, Tamil, Malayalam AND Bahasa Indonesia (fyi, there are many Indonesian Catholics working, studying or living in Singapore).

And guess what word is used for "GOD" in these Bahasa Indonesia Masses?

Without any complaints whatsoever from MUIS (Majlis Ugama Islam Singapura) or Muslim NGOs in Singapore.

And MUIS and Muslim NGOs participate in inter-faith dialogues in Singapore, with the proceedings reported widely in the local media.

See the difference?

So, stop to trying to score points when you haven't the faintest idea what you are talking about!

skilgannon1066 said...

perwira 10:18 PM

Please don't display your stupidity so openly.

To turn your question back on it's head: what language is the liturgy conducted in? Bahasa Indonesia? Bahasa Malaysia? Mandarin? Japanese? French? Tamil? Hindi?

Have you attended Mass in a Catholic Church that was conducted in a language other than English or Bahasa Malaysia? If you have, then you will know the answer.

Ignorance must be in the the air that we breathe or the water that we drink!

skilgannon1066 said...

anon 9:28 PM

Again, another ignoramus displaying his or her woeful disregard for the facts.

Such as Singaporean Malays receive hefty education subsidies from the Spore govt for primary to tertiary education, IF they make the grade (hard work and meritocracy).

And how can the HDB quota policy be "racist" when the Malays are a minority community in Singapore? The population census statistics don't lie.

And spare us the tired old rigamarole about Spore's CPF policy with regard to Malaysians. That certainly has not deterred thousands of Malaysians from living and working in Singapore, including sizeable numbers who commute daily across the Causeway.

Including, I daresay, a substantial number of Malaysian Malays. They are not put off by the "racist" attitude of the Singapore authorities and are desperate to work in the republic. Why, I wonder? Could it be the strong Singapore dollar that fetches 2.40 Malaysian ringgit?

I, myself, have come across Malaysian Malays working in Singapore as cleaners, gardeners, bus captains, nurses, technicians, security guards and auxiliary police personnel. And that's not counting the Malaysian Malay professionals like lawyers, accountants, doctors, IT staff and teachers.

Don't, lah, get into an argument that you can't win!

Anonymous said...

I smell a grilled pigbrain chingkie bitch in here...

hahahaha..he is 100% pure idiot..what did i tell ya all b4..result confirmed..see..so many people agreed with the fact..an arrogant idiot (bodoh sombong - the worst combination of attitude, typical feature of ultra chingkies..) like him will forever deny that he is an idiot..

bitchmoron..you owe me big time..where the fuck you wanna run away this time?

oh..so now you in for Indonesia, eh? no more singapore? why not just migrate there & apply for PR? maybe they can throw another Medan 1997 party for an arrogant pigbrain like you..hehehehe..

so typical of pendatang mentality..macam babi..sondol apa saja yg asal boleh ditelan..tarak maruah & bodoh sungguh cinababi sorang ni..hahahaha....it is really fun to have him around..he himself is a joke..

:D muhahahaha
-anti hindraf & ultra chingkies-

Anonymous said...

skilly

what is your response to lee hsien loong's take that singapore is not ready for a non-chinese prime minister

and that he feels that voting in singapore will be along racial lines, eh

let's see your spinning on this one

BTW - tertiary education is no longer FREE - see they even tweak what is in the constitution, dodo

Anonymous said...

Skilly's intellectual quote, "In making the choices, the parents will have to decide which of the two races is to come first when registering the child's birth at the ICA.

The minister said this is to help the child identify better and be "culturalised" with a particular race."

And I thought the father's race will be the deciding factor??

Why not put "Singaporean" and do without race eh?? Don't hide policies favouring one race over the other, behind "majority" concept.

Anonymous said...

Skilly+++13,

Haiya... hal nama lu punya tuhan pun mau bising2.

Haiya, saya punya kucing nama Tompok, kalo lain nama panggil lia tatak layan! Tompok...lai lai, lia mana tempat luluk pun lari sama gua dekat mali. Lu panggil lia spotty atau belang.. lia tatak layan. Satu nama saja sampai lia mati.

Lu amak belanak sama lu, kasi mayak nama ka?

Singapore, satu dunia pun panggil Singapore, ada pernah dengar orang Engrish panggil negara Lionpore?

PERWIRA

Anak said...

We, the Catholic Iban of Sarawak do not use BM for our Mass. We use Iban and we use the word "Allah Taala" for God. We have been using it before Malaysia was born. If the elders knew that we are to be banned from using the word Allah, then nobody would want to join Malaya to form Malaysia. Lots of twisting came from Peninsula such as Sabah and Sarawak did not form but JOINED Malaysia. Having used the word Allah for a very long time, the matter is a non issue in East Malaysia.
As for the Herald, hey, we Ibans have our own publication called Sempun distributed INTERNALLY among ourselves. So there will be no case of confusing the Muslims.
By the way, how it is confusing to the Muslims since Muslims do not attend Mass services.
Honestly I think, good Muslims will never be confused. Those with strong aqidah will never be swayed away from Islam.

We do feel that:
Any dialogues is useless because it would be to the advantage of the Muslims.
Harmony can only be achieved if non-Malays kow tow to the Ketuanan Melayu.
There is no non-Muslim Malays. There are only Malays and Malays are Muslims.
Bumiputeras include non Malays and Malays but when UMNO talks about Malays, they really talks about Malays but not Bumiputeras. Ketuanan Melayu does not mean the rights of all Bumiputeras but the Malays alone.
No other races go higher than the Malays and no other religions should have better places of worship than Islam.

Forgive me, I was wrong. We do not FEEL but see that all of the above really happening in Malaysia.
Wake up people. We can only achieve 1Malaysia if Malays are number 1 in everything. If you try to become number 1, then there will be no harmony in the country.

Open your eyes and see for yourselves. Am I wrong Rocky?

Anonymous said...

Dear Rocky Bru,

The Supreme Name and The Dogs of Kufr and Shirk

by Shaykh Dr. Abdalqadir as-Sufi

(The dogs are barking in Malaysia....)

http://www.shaykhabdalqadir.com/content/articles/Art102_13012020.html

Anonymous said...

Dear Rocky,
sorry forgot to put a nick name.
Resending website with relevant article.

The Supreme Name and The Dogs of Kufr and Shirk

by Shaykh Dr. Abdalqadir as-Sufi
(The dogs are barking...)

http://www.shaykhabdalqadir.com/content/articles/Art102_13012020.html

TQ
dinarmas

Anonymous said...

A simple solution is to kick out the two East Malaysia state and let them go independent. Than they can practice what they like.

Lets enjoy hala Bak Kut Tay

skilgannon1066 said...

perwira 11:06 PM

Instead of going into meaningless polemics, why not just respond to the points I made in my posts?

Or is that too much for your peabrained, overtaxed intellect?

Cheers!

skilgannon1066 said...

anon 8:49 PM

Kindly point out to me the relevant sections of the Singapore Constitution that specifically mention the entitlement of Singaporean Malays to free education at all levels, from primary to tertiary.

And if Lee Hsien Loong said that Singapore is not ready for a non-Chinese PM, he was only stating a fact. I can ask you the same question - is Malaysia ready for a non-Malay PM?

If Singaporeans vote along racial lines, how is it any different from Malaysia?

To bring this back to topic, the point to be made is that the Catholic, Protestant and evangelical Christian churches in Singapore conduct their Masses, prayers and worship sessions in several languages, including Bahasa Indonesia (not in Malay because there is no need to), without any complaints from any particular community.

And that is a matter of fact, not conjecture.

skilgannon1066 said...

perwira 11:06 PM

No, but I have heard Singapore being called a "global hub" where everything works efficiently. Including the banking system and broadband Internet.

Some more, got 2 casinos, lah! And a Universal Studios theme park where many Malaysian VIPs and VVIPs will bring their kids to be entertained. What more do you want? :-)


In Singapore - Booze? No problem. Close proximity? Also no problem!

But I digress from the spirit of this thread. Mea culpa!

Anonymous said...

hello mat kong....who the hell are you to tell the christians to stop using allah as their god...on the other side of ur brains i.e. if you have any.....dont you feel proud that the christians now recognise allah as god...just imagine all christians become muslims hah dont that tickle ur pricking arse you stupid arsehole....better call yourself Mat KonKek la

Anonymous said...

Skilly+++13

skilgannon1066 said...

Instead of going into meaningless polemics, why not just respond to the points I made in my posts?

Or is that too much for your peabrained, overtaxed intellect?

Which posts bruder?

Singapore? American Navy? Indonesian Ulamaks? Your Big brother China?

U commenting on Islam? How many times kau sudah katam AlQuran, in its original form? No? then you know nothing about Islam..

so shooooo away! Go to Lionpore and suck all the lolipops till your saliva oozes..

PERWIRA

Anonymous said...

skilgannon1066 said...


No, but I have heard Singapore being called ....

Guess your grandpapamama must have heard the same about Tanah Melayu years ago when they decided to land here?

Like Atok like cucu!

PERWIRA

skilgannon1066 said...

perwira 2:22 AM

Wassamatter - lost the debate on Singapore, so you resort to polemics and name-calling? It just goes to show the paucity of your intellect and the bankruptcy of your views.

Let me repeat what is stated in the Singapore Constitution, specifically Part XIII, Article 152:

"...recognise the special position of the Malays, who are the indigenous people of Singapore...it shall be the responsibility of the Government to protect, safeguard, support, foster and promote their political, educational, religious, economic, social and cultural interests and the Malay language"

Note that Article 152 uses the word "interests", not "rights". It means interests, duties and responsibilities, rather than rights and entitlements.

And the Malay community in Singapore have privileges such as:

- free tertiary education (modified in 1989 with means testing)
- state support for the mosque-building programme (not provided for temples and churches)
- appointment of a Minister to represent the interests of the Malay community (currently Dr Yaacob Ibrahim, Minister-in-charge of Muslim Affairs and concurrently Minster for the Environment & Water Resources)

Again, this is a digression from the topic of this thread.

Anonymous said...

Skilly+++13,

You can harp until the sun drops about Lionpore, me not interested!

I have a Chinese Singaporean who operates a Western food restaurant, the dirtiest food outlet in my town..

Whole family cannot speak a single sentence of English! And illegal workers jump into the drains behind my shop to hide from authorities whenever there's news on PATI operations!

Claims that the father too operates a restaurant in Orchard Road! Must be EQUALLY dirty...

And ask why they don't do business in Singapore? Susah mau cari makan disana lor! Too competitive!

You apahal mau merapu sana sini about Lionpore? Lu Singaporean meh?

PERWIRA

Anonymous said...

Yada..yada..blardy fucking blah..behold the words coming from a true pendatang chingkie who can't even recite his own Rukunegara
..

Ohh..so there they use "interest" eh? So, are you thinking "right" is used back here then?

Nope moron, its "privillege".. so whose right have been taken away, oppressed or marginalized over here anyway under our Federal Constitution? so, how effective are the "interests" been taken care over there or is it just another "cosmetic"?

How am i not feeling so interested at all to busy body about other country affair like a typical alien who are so damn well versed about any other country in this world except the one which he had excreted most of his babishit waste from the day he was born..so what's your main point with all that, hah bitch? yawn..yawn..

Hey skilmoron,

Better shut the fuck up from now onwards bitch if you got nothing intellectually worth to say..

Idiot.

verbum sapientis satis..

How to beat people if you cannot rebut their argument instead you run away from a debate thinking you're a winner? how many time do you wanna be ass busted to your humility & pretending nothing ever happened you shameless chingkie pig? Really a pigface eh smartass 'anon'?

Oh, yeah right, pigface like you where got any maruah in the 1st place..that's why u can live with it..

No comprende eh bitch?
Thinking of flip floping again pigface?
you still owed me bigtime bitch.

greatteadrinkerdownsouth eh?
Overboozed pigbrain i would rather say..

:D muhahahaha
-anti hindraf & ultra chingkies-

..|.,

[cursing the shameless pigface + copy & paste]

skilgannon1066 said...

perwira

No, boss - me not Singaporean.

Not to worry, boss, if you don't like Singapore. Plenty of your compatriots, of all races and religions, do. Come stand at the JB end of the Causeway every morning and see the masses streaming into the Lion City.

Why, ah? Must be the strong Singapore dollar. Can get 2.40 ringgit for every Sing dollar. Rich, man, in JB or the little towns in the peninsula! Can buy terrace house and Proton Waja, no problem. Can send kids to school and put food on the table pun boleh.


Never mind, have to work funny jobs in Singapore like cleaners, security guards, bus drivers, auxiliary policemen, waiters, sales personnel, cashiers etc. Money very good, leh. Bus driver in Singapore can earn around RM4,500 per month. In Malaysia, where got? Graduates from Malaysian universities starting salaries not so much. Go figure.

Why you very big talk one? Apa sebab Malaysian govt has to depend on Petronas to provide 40 per cent of it's revenue? No Petronas, how? Cari duit mana? Lion City got no Petronas, tapi boleh build up solid reserves. Mana boleh? Even Dr Mahathir is scratching his head wondering how come Harry Lee can pull this off! With or without sand from Malaysia!

Wah, lau - this one major going off topic. Minta maaf, Sdr Rocky!

Anonymous said...

to the smart alec ...

Official languages and national language
153A. —(1) Malay, Mandarin, Tamil and English shall be the 4 official languages in Singapore.

(2) The national language shall be the Malay language and shall be in the Roman script:

skilgannon - how come MANDARIN is promoted with national funds??

and the self-help group is race-based - a nice term for racist practices

--------------------
Jan 18, 2010
No merger of self-help groups
Ethnic-based groups are better placed to help those in their own communities
By Rachel Chang

DEPUTY Prime Minister Wong Kan Seng yesterday explained why it would not be a good idea for ethnic-based self-help groups to merge or operate under one umbrella.

Mr Wong, who is also Home Affairs Minister, said certain community problems can be dealt with only by the leaders from those communities.

Speaking to reporters on the sidelines of a grassroots event, he said the objectives of organisations like the Chinese Development Assistance Council (CDAC) or Mendaki 'are very clear: they help the community for which they are formed'.

In fact, those who want to help a particular community should go through the community leaders. This is because certain problems and issues are not easily grasped by those on the outside, he said.

'If I were a Chinese wanting to help a Malay, the first issue I have to deal with is, do I understand these problems?

'(If) you don't really understand the deeper issues of the community, shouldn't (assistance) really be done by the leaders of the particular community?'

Read the full story in Monday's edition of The Straits Times.

skilgannon - also read this

http://theonlinecitizen.com/2009/09/should-article-152-be-scrapped-from-the-singapore-constitution/

do DIGEST these articles carefully and try not to CHOKE on your arrogant self-righteous stance

Anonymous said...

specially for the skewedmoron

"And if Lee Hsien Loong said that Singapore is not ready for a non-Chinese PM, he was only stating a fact. I can ask you the same question - is Malaysia ready for a non-Malay PM?

If Singaporeans vote along racial lines, how is it any different from Malaysia?"

So it is a fact that Singapore is practising racist policies??

Hey skewedmoron, your stance all along was that your model of excellence singapore was meritocratic, democratic, fair and reward talent and hard work, right, moron?

So now that we are stating FACTS, why is it that the pendatangs are angry when they are called pendatangs and Ahmad had to be penalised for stating FACTS??

Your stupid (to the highest degree) question "is Malaysia ready for a non-Malay PM?" - reflects not only your dastardly and misplaced arrogance, it also displays your utter retardation.

Even though the Malays are recognised as the indigenous people of singapore, they have NO SAY in the actual running of their welfare. Please read Yusuf Ishak's niece book "The Singapore Dilemma".

Shheeshh ... the sheer arrogant retardation of some non-entity

inilah yang orang kata BODOH SOMBONG

Anonymous said...

I heard echo skilmoron..

ECHO...

Echo...

echo...

who's blowing hot air now?
Look like solid shits already hit your pigface..

kah..kah..kah..

:D muhahahaha
-anti hindraf & ultra chingkies-

skilgannon1066 said...

anon 9:03 PM

Your point is what, exactly?

Singapore has 4 official languages. So what? The working language in Singapore is English. Anything wrong with that?

The 4 community self-help groups in Singapore - Mendaki, Sinda, CDAC and EA - all get funds from the government. The allocations are open and transparent. How they spend their funds is rigorously monitored and audited.

And if you think that the Singapore Malays are discriminated against, then why aren't more of them migrating to "greener" pastures in Malaysia? Instead, like I posted, it's the reverse, with hundreds of Malaysian Malays having to "cari makan" in Singapore.

Which is the single point that anti whatever, warrior xxx etc are unable to refute - that so many of their Malaysian brothers and sisters are willing to suffer "discrimination" and "racism" and seek a living working in Singapore. I threw a challenge to these wankers - to go stand at the JB end of the Causeway in the early morning and count how many of their brethren make the daily trek to Singapore. Motorbikes and "bas kilang", anyone?

Not to mention the Malaysian VIPs and VVIPs who regard the Lion City as their own personal playground, private bank and medical facility.

So, spare me the crap of what Singapore is or isn't. As long as Malaysians are driven to seek work there, and as long as the Singapore dollar buys 2+ ringgit, your arguments are essentially bankrupt.

Go wrap what passes for your intellects around those two unpalatable facts.

Anonymous said...

Skilly+++13,

.....And if you think that the Singapore Malays are discriminated against, then why aren't more of them migrating to "greener" pastures in Malaysia?

Same like you one mah...
So why are you still here in Malaysia sucking lollipops?

LOL

PERWIRA

Anonymous said...

to the retard skewedmoron

"According to recent revelations, the country loses about 1000 educated Singaporeans each year. This flight of the educated, as commentators have noted, must be seen against the almost 200,000 jobs created in 2007, far in excess of the 38,000 births recorded. In addition to this, there is an estimated 100,000 to 150,000 Singaporeans who are working or studying abroad, a good slice of whom will not be returning. All this points to one inescapable truth – the overseas Singaporean community, per capita, is one of the highest in the world and will only get bigger."

http://opinionasia.com/RethinkingSingaporeanNationalism

p.s. Hey Perwira, you gave him good, heh heh

Anonymous said...

skewedmoron, part 2

MINISTER Mentor Lee Kuan Yew had this message for Singaporeans who did the hard and dirty work to build the nation: I am here to look after you.

'I do not believe 50 per cent of Singaporeans can emigrate,' he said at the Young People's Action Party dialogue at the St James Power Station nightspot.

'So as a government, and personally for me and my colleagues, my responsibility is to look after those who cannot migrate.' ..........
He said that while most Singaporeans could not leave, he is aware that the better-educated and talented ones could do so.

He noted that the top 20 to 30 per cent of educated Singaporeans have the skills and abilities to emigrate to anywhere in the world.

And many do, with about 150,000 Singaporeans working in companies, setting up businesses or living abroad.

'We are now into a globalised world where people who are well-educated, well-trained and especially English-educated have enormous options,' he said.

But his point to them was this: 'Can you leave with a clear conscience? I cannot.'

He urged them to think hard about what they owe the country. 'If we lose our top talent, then we will decline as a nation,' he said.

http://mrwangsaysso.blogspot.com/2007/04/lee-kuan-yew-on-emigration.html

Anonymous said...

skewedmoron, part 3

Why I Would Like to Leave, by Kitana

The government asks us why we leave. They calls us quitters and deserters, for leaving our country, our homeland, for some other place that we perceive to be greener pastures. Why leave Singapore, where we rank tops for good governance (save for voice and accountability, where we scored a low of 38.2% this year), where we are so clean and safe and secure, and where we are so efficient?

The fact of the matter is, that there are people who will give up all of the above, for more freedom.

The stress is crazy; the pressure unfightable. It starts from the time we enter primary school; the education system does prepare us for the real world in that sense – we get exposed to pressure cooker type stress and a level of competition that makes having a life outside of academia almost impossible, unlike in other countries whose universities also produce Nobel laureates. Our parents push us, our schools push us; society pushes us… And our goal is this:

Money. Money and the economy.

And this works great for Singapore, because all of Singapore’s objectives are geared towards only 1 thing and one thing alone: money. Or in the case of this country, the economy. Everything we do, we do it for the sake of our economy. We have no minimum wage; we have no protection against the ills that globalization necessarily brings us. We have no protection for the rising income equality (all we have is an article in the newspapers telling us to disbelieve the Gini-coefficient), we have no solutions for our elderly except to either dump them in Johor or Batam, or to encourage our young to bring more babies into this pressure cooker life.

http://intelligentsingaporean.wordpress.com/2006/09/21/why-i-would-like-to-leave/

Anonymous said...

more reading for skewedmoron

Keeping Singaporeans at home

Last but not least, the very notion of home is increasingly diluted in Singapore. The Asia Research Centre of Murdoch University reported in December 2007 that 53% of Singaporean teens would consider emigration to greener pastures. Singapore’s outflow of 26.11 emigrants per 1000 citizens is ranked 2nd highest in the world, after Timor Leste. Deputy Prime Minister Wong Kan Seng also publicly acknowledged that Singaporean applications for overseas residency have already exceeded 1000 per month since 2007.

http://theonlinecitizen.com/2009/03/beyond-dialects-and-languages/

Anonymous said...

hey skilmoron the supreme cyber pigbrain..

Good one bro Perwira.Skilmoron, with all the ass-licking & fetish about Singapore, why are you still clinging with the Malaysian passport you stupid chingkie fuckheads? Singapore or any country in this world except Malaysia perhaps, will not consider something worthless and stupid like this lost soul ahbeng to be their citizen..so start counting your blessing from now you stupid chingkie alien. Go recite your Rukunegara 24-7 from now on when you wake up, eat, shit or fuck.

Singaporean chingkie maybe know how to fuck but failed to breed..the kiasus species are facing threat of extinction! and soon will have no choice but to accept inferior product like yourself skilmoron to cling on with their chingkie supremacy..kah..kah..kah..Good for Malaysia.

What make you think you are so damn good fuckheads..? you can't even rebut rationally & intellectually to take down people like me..hey fuckhead..what make you think i wanna entertain all your pigbrain question from now onwards? You can't even take any of my questions fired direct hit between your sliteyes..low class lah layan you idiot.

You really are a worthless chingkie..you just a stinx fart in the air & you survive without brain substance thanx to your own stupidity and no maruah chingkie attitude..give them some credit for that..hehehehe..that is probably your only shit worth in this world..

The truth is, you only worth a shit in this world, pigbrain..so better stop dreaming or fantasizing things that you are not capable of. I see you're going nowhere from the place you shit..kah..kah..kah..

Depression, frustration, denied orgasm, hallucinating, deluding..and all the terms of the schizophrenic mental club..

that is where you evolved skimoron..to be the stupidest chingkie in blogsphere..

Echo..moron.. its echo...envy me, moron.. WE resonans & amplified each others..in fact, our brain are anytime better than yours, you stupid lost soul ahbeng. Well, your rating now supersede monsterball.. go booze and masturbate to celebrate yourself out you looser!

..|.,

:D muhahahaha
-anti hindraf & ultra chingkies-

Anonymous said...

I am not a christian but I notice most of the comments sought of bashing catholics " to kingdom come". Having live in malaysia all my life, racism and bigotry seem to attract more debates than any other topics, in the net and as well as the MSM whether it was twisted,slanted and whatnots. I think malaysian love to debate on religions and racism as its now a national past time to screw up each other. More of intolerance in diversity. What then can you expect less educated guys like couriers boys do after hearing educated people instigating and expounding hatred of other religion in public? In the name of Islam they went and burnt the church.Haven't we seen that happened in America 911. Violence begets violence. An eye for an eye.

Leaders are definately responsible for the incidents of hatred and damages to public property and it does not mitigate their position if compensation were paid. The damage is done. When the courts have made their decision on the Allah issued, only Great leaders with conviction would have reprimanded and forewarned any troublemakers that they would be dealth with severely by the authorities. Such incident would have been prevented.There is nothing wrong in complying with the decision of the courts as not doing so would have invited anarchy.

In this respect, I agreed that the PM and his minister failed us.

Of course going with the directions of some of the comments here would have provide more venom for violence and anarchy.

Ale