Tuesday, March 24, 2009

In defence of Harakah, Suara Keadilan

1. I defended Utusan Malaysia against the suits by politicians, here.

2. I condemned political parties that barred New Straits Times and Utusan Malaysia from covering the official functions of their parties and the states they now govern.

3. And I read in disbelief last night about the three-month suspension of Harakah and Suara Keadilan. I didn't think we still do that in this day and age (click here)

I expect those who defended the politicians in (1) and the political parties in (2) to also support the Government in suspending the newspapers.

62 comments:

Old Fart said...

....cannot come up with just unconditional and unreserved condemnation ah? Why make it conditional upon others who praised the nst and utusan censure to now retract their praise. Pariah still remains pariah, cannot change la. And that is what utusan and nst have become! So how?

amoker said...

Kind of humbling right? You tot that you are right to defend both Utusan and NST only to find that an even meaner reason is used by the beloved governement.

AND ... new media is now barred from the UMNO convention and bloggers are barred to. Supporting that?

jita said...

I am sorry Rocky..but I have to agree with Hamid Albar on this one. As much as I like (not support, but like) freedom of speech, I see damages upon damages done by them. They're rude, they're pompous, they over-exaggerate, over-sensationalised, in other words - they think they're better than God. Anyway, not that they'll adhere to this ruling anyhow (Check statement made by Azmin in The Star today), I kind of like they shut their mouth for a while as at the moment in this tower of babel called Malaysia, too many people are talking and no one is listening!

sb said...

now the Home Minister has banned 6 online media. why is UMNO so worried about press freedom?

teohjitkhiam said...

"I expect those who defended the politicians in (1) and the political parties in (2) to also support the Government in suspending the newspapers."

Spot on, bro!

-thethinker- said...

itu lain laa bro...
1. Saman pasai laporan tak benar , kalau Harakah dan Suara Keadilan bual laporan fitnah, mintaklah si-polan anu tuu saman , bawak ke mahkamah.

2. Tak beri kerjasama / boikot tak menghalang kewujudan media.

3. Yg nii yg jadi prob ni.. pii gantung permit .. lepas tak dapat lawan ngan cara terang , bubuh cara kotor. Macam bertengkar ngan kanak kanak , lepas kalah , halau kanak kanak balik , mintak diam .

Anonymous said...

When are we going to learn; respect is something you gained not demand. You cannot stop people from talking, publishing anything for that matter. You can, if you believe you have been wronged, take them to court and make them learn and respect the law of the land. Now is that really something so difficult to understand!

mut said...

It seems the best way would have been for Utusan to apologise, or be suspended by KDN for writing stories which were untrue about Teresa. Then she would not have had to sue. But of course, neither of the above would have happened eh, Rocky?

BTW, I am not sure which parts of the story that Hamid Albar says are untrue, confusing or what not. From what I saw of the Suara Keadilan ban, the letter faxed by his minstry didn't state any reasons either.

So is the propensity to sue the media the problem?

Or is it the state of the media in Malaysia vis-a-vis KDN's hamfisted approach in regulating it? Some media are meant to get away with murder. Ezam was even detained under ISA for a false Utusan report once. The one where he was supposed to gave called for the overthrow the government through violent means. What action the KDN take against Utusan?

To sum it up, media must be "responsible" or the KDN will come down hard on you. But this statement of responsibility doesn't apply to any pro BN media of course.

I suspect it's the latter. Therein lies the crux.

Shariff said...

I just don't get it.
This ban will not affect them going online and disseminating the same information thorugh the web.
Thus they will jsut be printed and disseminated again.
The mind boggles at how stupid these Home Ministry people are. All they are doing is making Suara and Harakah more popular through their actions.

al-Balingi said...

Salam Bro Rocky,

*Act of desperadoes. Thats sums up the whole scenario. From the ban of Harakah and Suara Keadilan until the fire of tear gas at Taman Ria Sg.Petani.

* The freedom of voice and expression that you and your band of bloggers been fighting for seems like fallen onto the deaf ears.

* Newsletter are banned, ceramahs were ambushed by the FRU..what other left??

Syeikh Al-Hafiz said...

Rocky,
I support the ban of Harakah and Suara Keadilan. The ban will stop the circulations of false allegations for three months.

Anonymous said...

a blanket defence like that kinda reflect a lack of guidance by the spirit of what those 'principles' aim to do? We do not defend the hutus in rwanda when they used the media to incite violence. similarly, the utusan article abused the concept of free press to put forth it's violent story. not worth defending.

gigi

Anonymous said...

Ini Syed Hamid bangang nak tunjuk pelir yang takde.

Jangan kasi dia undi. Tanam si arab kedekut!

Orang Kote Tinggi

Anonymous said...

Print versions are of a dying breed.

Compare readership of Malaysiakini with The Star (print version).

Even if the MSMs come out with their viewpoints (complying to the dictates of their 'bosses') the current generation will scuttle away to get the other side of the story from online media.

This cannot be avoided.

The more the MSMs heboh about bans inflicted on non-BN print media, it is bound to irk the anti-establishment folks.

Yet the MSMs and their bosses never learn of the need to steer away from 'one-sided' news in their outputs.

If they continue to have static views of any situation without acknowledging the reality about the fast growing internet savvy local population, then they are voluntarily digging their own graves.

Rocky, you cannot tell these fellows about the sad end they will face in teh near future?

ANOTHER MALAYSIAN

Anonymous said...

This business of managing perception must be more difficult than I had initially thought. Perhaps I'd even underestimated the subtlety of the dark art and what was required to deploy it well.

Above all else, always maintain that one is 'neutral' - even in the face of facts and quoted statements that stretch th meaning of the term 'neutral' beyond the intent of the English language.

Having done that, attempt to draw parallels between issues and occurences (as is the case with this latest posting) which really have nothing to do with each other aside from the fact that the parties involve exist under the broad banner of "media".

The newspapers were sued because the plaintiff allegeed that they published bald faced lies in an attempt to destroy the plaintiff and create racial unrest.

Certain newspapers were banned from news conferences of certain political parties and/or certain governments formed by certain political parties because of alleged consistent misreporting by said newspapers - based on the preception (and perhaps their's wasn't managed very well) that there was a wider conspiracy to consistently paint them in bad light.

Whay, pray tell, is the parallel between those instances/issues with that of the government conveniently banning opposition newspapers/newsletters summarily right about the time a highly controversial figure is about to ascend the prime ministership of the country and no small matter(s) of three (3)by-elections are about to take place?

DN

Vesu said...

excellent ; this is the true spirit of a journalist ; i salute you. YES , press freedom in this era is no longer an issue; there are other avenues to release news. let people judge the media .

Remy said...

saman je.. bukannya sekat bro.... kalau dia rasa dia yakin dengan ketelusan mahkamah milik mereka kenapa takut nak disaman? pembangkang dah rasuah hakim ke?

Anonymous said...

yang patut diharamkan ialah majalah mangga, URTV dan Hai.. Yang patut disaman ialah pemfitnah, laporan tidak bertanggungjawab dan artikel yang berniat jahat.

Anonymous said...

Harakah & Suara Keadilan was named as one of the causes of BN lost in Permatang Pauh & Kuala Trengganu. So, BN has learnt their lesson and have to ban these 2 papers before the 3 by-elections.

Anonymous said...

Your switch to the dark side is now complete, rocky. Welcome to the dark side of the force.

Godfather

Rocky's Bru said...

Old Fart and Amoker,

You can't defend the Press selectively. You may be pro-Anwar or pro-PKR/PR, but let's defend the right of the likes of Utusan, NST and the Star. All three are more balanced than Harakah or Suara Keadilan any time.

Pariah still remains pariah, dear Old Fart? Even if you were born one, you can change. Many have become better with hard work and the desire to change.

Thank you.

selampit said...

Now that's one DUMB move.

With so many by-elections coming, the first response that will enter the people's minds is "UMNO is scared, UMNO dah nak kojol" or "UMNO now so desperate to win lah"

Pakatan Rakyat supporters will definitely DANCE TO THIS, like a girl high on ecstasy in a disco. They will use this against UMNO and its BN allies.

Whatever the motives behind this untimely suspension, it will only add further blows to the recovering UMNO/BN.

ChengHo said...

Way to go Syed Hamid , they do not understand the meaning of freedom under the malaysian contact

strannix said...

helo bro...cannot differenciate btwn daily newspaper (for public) and political newspaper (members only)..if dare give them licenses as msm...so can see which the most balanced of them all....

Anonymous said...

Najib not only shot his own feet, it seems he has now shot his own sheens too.

Parpu Kari said...

WAH BRO, BRO ROCKY. I LiKE YOUR COMMENT ON "PARIAH WILL REMAIN PARIAH"....
TAJAM DAN SANGAT DALAM MAKSUDNYA TU..HE HE HE

WHY 3 MONTHS, I WANT HARAKAN AND KEEDILAN TO BE BANNED FOR LIFE! PAPER MENGARUT ASYIK DOK MENJILAT DAN MEMUJI AL JUBURI WAL LIWATI JE..

100% BERITA PALSU DALAM SURATKHABAR MEREKA!! SIAPA YANG PERCAYA MEMANG BODOH LA NAMANYA!

DEPA BOIKIT UTUSAN TAKPA, TU KAT PENANG TU DEPA TAK BAGI NST BUAT LIPUTAN, OOO TANG DEPA HALAL YA? BILA KITA NAK KEADLIAN DAN HARAKAH DI BAN, KORANG MARAH YA!?

AKU HARAP LESEN MEREKA DI TARIK BALIK...BARU PADAN DENGAN MUKA MEREKA! MUAHAHAHAHA

kluangman said...

Pengharaman sementara pengeluaran selama 3 bukan ke atas Harakah dan Suara Keadilan sepatutnya disokong dan ia juga patut dikenakan kepada akhbar akhbar lain seperti NST atau utusan dan juga akhbar perkauman lain seperti The Star, sin Chew... dan sebagainya.

Mereka juga bukan kebal dari segi undang2 dan mengambil peranan melagakan rakyat dengan pelbagai isu.

Rakyat tidak buta dan mati tanpa mereka.

Anonymous said...

Najib has just shot not only his own feet but the sheens as well.

KIWI from N Z

Anonymous said...

The BN has under its control all the MSM and also all the electronic media such as TV and radio to propagate their version of Truth. The opposition will have to have their own newsletter to propagate their truth. It is the people who come up who to beleive. This is so in all sensible thinking nation. The BN cannot be worried about falsity, you provide good governance and the civil soceity will know that and support you. If Bn goes berserk and violates all freedom than the citizenery will throw them out in the next election, unless najib thinks he can be a dictator in this borderless world and in shrinking economy, the country will be doomed.period

Anonymous said...

Have you all been following these 2 papers? It sucks full of shitty news..

Preaching what they themselves do not practice.

The PAS people in my area never will step into a Chinese shop.. JIJIK katanya, there they are in the papers being goody goody hypocrites.

When Harakah started, this very senior (in our district) PAS man, who would voluntarily stand by the road junction to distribute FREE copies!

Few months back son kongkek a 16year old, became pregnant... GOSH, pandai benar sembunyi... Another very devoted PAS family, kongkek, married and child born just 3months after marriage?? Ingapore??

WANNA TEACH PEOPLE RELIGION, TEACH YOUR FAMILY AND KIDS FIRST. Mengutuk orang memang nombor satu!

Want me to list here the 2families involved??

Tak molek mengaibkan orang... Most of their articles are mere rubbish!!

FAIL

smoker said...


amoker said...
Kind of humbling right? You tot that you are right to defend both Utusan and NST only to find that an even meaner reason is used by the beloved governement.

AND ... new media is now barred from the UMNO convention and bloggers are barred to. Supporting that?

3:00 PM


Lim Guan bars NST from any Penang goverment functions. How's that? Pot calling Kettle black

abu hasan said...

salam..
it's totally diffrent la bro..
setuju ngan thethinker..
kalau dalam ilmu usul fikah kita panggil al-qias maa'l fariq..
cuba la bro tolong kaji kaedah tu..
it's either u're the spinner or u're just that smart..
who knows nay..

Anonymous said...

You "read in disbelief" but you did not "defend" MR. Rocky

eddy said...

3 months ban not enough, it should be 1 year at least. Harakah and Suara Keadilan publishers are arrogant writes half truths and most of the time disseminates false information in the name of press freedom. The so called Freedom to write nonsense and speculations must be curtailed. Its not good for the country.Good call by Menteri Dalam Negeri.

donplaypuks® said...

It's clear that Utusan's blurb on Teresa was deliberate, reckless and defamatory and scandalous. They ought to have double checked their source.

More that that they resorted to scurillous and 'dare you' behaviour with that piece of fiction.

You dare, you pay the price. Don't try and hide behind 'freedom of speech and Press' bullshit!
http://donplaypuks.blogspot.com

fencesitter said...

alahai rocky, u ni too subtle la. dia orang tu hipokrit, hang cakap je dia orang hipokrit. senang je. ok la, nst tu ada yang kata pariah, tu la agaknya sebab guan eng ban paper tu kat penang. keluar satu artikel yang guan eng tak suka terus dia melenting call bureau chief dengan group editor nst pagi pagi buta maki maki. tak percaya, hang tanya la syed. Walaupun ramai yang kata macam-macam pasal dia, aku tau Syed bukan jenis kelentong punya. Lepas maki-maki syed pun dia tak puas hati, tu yang dia hantar press release kat semua paper lain hentam nst. siap hantar kat foreign press lagi. yang nak kelakarnya, Star tak pakai statement dia pun dia maki bureau chief Star. Aku quotekan lagi apa dia cakap kat bureau chief star tu : "I am the chief Minister. You should do a report which is more fair than fair about my statement." Tu dia, punya la lupa daratan. Adnan Yaakob yang gangster Umno dan selalu gaduh dengan Press tu pun tak la perangai seburuk tu. Puak-puak ni cakap je pasal freedom of the Press. Tapi bila tang dia orang berkuasa, mana ada freedom of the Press. Lagi satu, kalau MSM ni dah nak mati, why bother apa yang dia orang tulis? Apa yang nak saman-saman, kan paper tu semua memang dah orang tak percaya. Apa gila sangat bising tak puas hati coverage dia orang. Pi lantak la. Ban je semuanya. Statement dia orang biar keluar kat harakah ke, roket ke suara keadilan je lah. Eh, kalau nak kata paper nst tu berat sebelah, pi lah baca balik report-report dia sebelum pilihanraya umum lepas, lepas tu compare dengan harakah, roket dengan suara keadilan. tengok sendiri yang mana lebih balanced. Tu, bloggers yang macam RPK, Harris Ibrahim dan tah apa kejadahnya la tu, balanced reporting ke? Tuduh orang pembunuh la rasuah la, satu bukti pun tak ada. Tu journalism with integriti ke? Ada ethic ke? Udah la, rocky, hang sound je direct dia orang ni, hipokrit tak sedar diri. Habis cerita. Cakap subtle-subtle pun buat letih je.

nonmuslimbumi said...

How certain are you that your own blog will not be the next to be banned Rocky? As I have often stated, this country has hijacked the media, the armed forces, police, judiciary and other instutitions to make it Umno and BN concubines.

So the issue of taking NST or Utusan to court is like telling a victim of rape to take her rapist to dinner. It is impratical to put faith in a goverment that has violated the fundamental principles of law and justice.

One thing is for sure, never ever underestimate the right of the media or people to express themselves.

Whenever a goverment or in our case "regime" attempt to silence the voice of its people, it will lose more than power, it will self-destruct.

Nasirudin Anjud said...

Salam Rocky,

Don't really understand why some people are still stubborn or maybe I should use the words 'Stuck-up'.
What is certain is that these same people refuse to learn from the drubbing they suffered in PRU-12.
Not our fault if they continue to tread on the path of destruction.

Rocky's Bru said...

Strannix wrote:
helo bro...cannot differenciate btwn daily newspaper (for public) and political newspaper (members only)..if dare give them licenses as msm...so can see which the most balanced of them all....

-----------
Bro Strannix,

There you are. So you can tell the difference after all which means you should know what you need to do. You need to join us to fight for the abolition of KDN licences and requirements so that anyone can publish newspapers.

Anonymous said...

Publications that print news that are "defamatory" should be subjected to libel suits, not be banned. Banning doesn't do anything except to make people want to read what was the issue even more. Take the publications to court, and make them pay.

Anonymous said...

Ban Utusan, NST, Harakah and Suara Keadilan. They are all alike. Too many nonsenses and lots of rubbish.

dumpster

al-Balingi said...

Bro Rocky,

You know what..some people said there are only 2 things we can trust from the daily newspaper.

1) Waktu Sembahyang

2) Nombor Ekoq.

The rest are rubbish....

Just kidding...:)

teohjitkhiam said...

Alamak, Bro Rocky. Thanks for including me in your blogroll!

Woooh, I got bragging rights in PM oredi...

Anonymous said...

"I expect those who defended the politicians in (1) and the political parties in (2) to also support the Government in suspending the newspapers." Rocky said.

It means if we are not supporting UMNO, better don't comment!

Okay! No comment.

MBBS

Anonymous said...

Yup.. Agreed wif the previous commenter.. You "read in disbelief" but you did not "defend" la bru.. You can do better than this..

-dd-

Anonymous said...

Nway stop using democracy and freedom of speech craps to polliticize this issue..

lets look at it this way..

Lets say u r the parents of a family of four..i ll bet u will do everything necessary within your power to keep your household in order..
-you wouldnt want to let your kids to just let their mouth loose and throw tantrums everytime they are not satisfied with something or when you wouldnt let them have their way just because you have heir best interest at heart and they just doesnt know it..
-you wouldnt want your kids to keep provocating other members of your households or influencing the minds and behaviours of their younger brothers/sisters just because they want to get their way..
-The last thing you want would be in your house, having your sons and daughter bad mouthing you out loud and spitting to your face just because you wouldnt let them go out till late..

So?do u see the resemblance now? freedom of speech is good but total freedom of speech is just silly..

the appointed leaders in power should take control..that is exactly what they are doing in singapore..do u see people running loose in singapore?do u see any electronic or paper based media that are against the s'porean govtment coming form the island itself?absolutely not, even the internet in s'pore are a controlled medium of communication...so much for freedom of speech, but see how they are doing over there comparing to us extra hours of democracy over here??

-Chinky Chan

celcolm said...

Firstly, there is a difference between mainstream media and political magazines.

Memang lah political magazines are bias. Tapi mainstream media tak sepatutnya bias.

I dont understand why media cannot report the truth? Kenapa nak spin-spin saja.

I know la the media belongs to umno + mca, but maybe thats the problem.

Anonymous said...

The funny thing, Phuckatan Riot will blame this on najib when obviously Dollah is still the PM...

Haha, baguih tactic Dollah.

Nonpartisan73

One Pip said...

For a political party to ban a newspaper from covering an event is OK. It's Umno's right. But for Home Ministry of Malaysia to ban publication of opposition newspapers, it's a different matter. Lawsuit = Ban?

U Umno people cannot see the difference, eh? That's why u r Umno! To u, Umno=government=nation. Opposition=enemy? When we protest against custodial torture and killing, u say we love criminals. That's why u r Umno!

One Pip said...

If we talk about arousing people anger, we can say the same thing about Utusan.

One Pip said...

Si Arab pencuci najis unta diberi tanggungjawab Home Minister

Phakatan Rioter said...

What is happening to Lim Guan Eng here? Tiger Park Boleh?

http://thestar.com.my/news/story.asp?file=/2009/3/24/nation/20090324233100&sec=nation

Published: Tuesday March 24, 2009 MYT 11:31:00 PM
Speculation rife that Jeff Ooi to quit as chief of staff
By TAN SIN CHOW


GEORGE TOWN: Speculation is rife that prominent blogger Jeff Ooi is quitting his position as chief of staff to Penang Chief Minister Lim Guan Eng.

Ooi did not deny the speculation when asked, but pointed out that when he agreed to the post last March, he had made a pact with Lim that the appointment would be only for one year, or “once the (state) administration is on the right track.”

Ooi, also the Jelutong Member of Parliament, refused to comment further.

If he does resign, he would be the second person from the Penang Pakatan Rakyat state administration to resign within a week.

On Saturday, Mohammad Fairus Khairuddin had tendered his resignation as deputy chief minister I and state executive councillor effective April 8.

Anonymous said...

I think Rocky has been consistent in his defense of the press etc. I also think that he never indicated his preference for either side of the political divide. The thing is; people tend to think that if you criticize one side, you MUST be with the other.

Grow up. I think the pro pakatan people, being used to criticizing people, cannot take being criticized. I'm not saying BN is better at taking criticism or anything, but maybe it's because they've been doing it for such a long time they at least know how to ignore the criticisms since you just cannot please everyone.

OK, now you can start calling me a BN dog or something for writing this. Like I care. Like I'll be your dog and try to please you.

Thing is, the pakatan people have been saying that the BN only made fools of the orang kampungs with their (the BN's) propaganda. And I believed that that was the case. And how happy I am that the BN lost their 2/3 in parliament. Now everywhere there are pakatan MPs who are supposedly voicing out what the rakyat wants when in reality they never cared about the orang kampungs, just their own agendas! Tell me, which kampung(s) REALLY want BAnwarBI as PM? They don't care! They just want their well-beings taken cared of! And I'm VERY sure no orang kampung in their right mind would want the Sultans to be criticized or brought to court. But the pakatan people do it. For the rakyat? or for the pakatan rakyat?

I, a rakyat, do not give my consent for the pakatan to use the word 'rakyat' for your alliance. You don't even have a proper alliance, dude. Stop being a horse for BABI. Or a dog.

-Naj

amir said...

Oh, defend, defend.

Defend, defend, defend, defend.

Sure defend lah.

I now defend Harakah and Suara Keadilan.

Now who wants to join me defend Utusan?

The Phoenix Foundation said...

AA!
Do you sometimes get the weird feeling that there is "reverse psychology" being applied every now & then?
If there is no ban - there is no reaction from all of us - no story - vey boring!
If there is a ban,a warning,then there is news,stories,chat,reactions & so on.
AA! Castyourself back when you were editing & tell us whether such a media strategy happens!
Somehow I cannot shake this "back thought" that constantly hangs around.!!
Godspeed!
Mr.M

Blower said...

for commentors

if dont like utusan nst harakah suara keadilan...then change to SINAR

i believe this paper is not bias...reporting what it should have report

p.s a reminder to DR AISAR YEE ABDULLAH...please update your blog...i like your articles

Rocky writes for Mahathir, Daim and Najib said...

I would defend press freedom no matter if it's for Utusan-NSTP or Harakah-SuaraKeadilan. If the Pakatan Rakyat decides to take away Utusan's license, then surely it's wrong. However, in this case, Barisan Nasional is the coward (like it has been, time and again).

To ROCKY: press freedom does NOT mean freedom to lie/persecute. You should be looking at your 3 examples on a case-by-case basis, and not lump them all into the category of "press freedom".

Somebody said ROCKY is not biased. Just read his entry again and read between the lines. Try to understand how ROCKY writes his sentences. I can smell political bias even in this article.

Anonymous said...

Banning periodicals prove nothing, especially to recalcitrants with one track agendum.

Now the banned periodicals will take the opportunity to demonstrate on the streets with slogan shouters chanting and burning used tyres to show their displeasure. And their mad followers will get all tranced up.

Wonder how China and Singapore deal with similar cases?

A long time ago, one ruling Chinese emperor burnt all books and literature from another opposing team. But in Singapore, such anti-establishment movements get sued to the last dollar.

Both countries are much better off than we are, economically speaking.

Perhaps we could emulate some of the good from these countries?

Nah.... Malaysia is too liberal in letting the trouble makers rule the day. All because the inmates have taken over the prison.

A GOOD MAN DOES NOTHING.

Anonymous said...

This is the handiwork of the people you have been supporting-lah Rock. You know Mahatir and his people. You ain't seen nothing yet.

No use pretending to care at this point. You have sealed your (and our) fate for (hopefully a fat) pay off.

Kaput.

Bet those jaguh bangsa clowns and supporters of your blog are all confused by your latest trick.

Just like you. Confused too now.

Let me spell it out for you :
You sold your children's futures my friend.

Allah forgive you.

Anonymous said...

Why did they take so long to ban this paper?

The very party that insist on implementing HUDUD, OMG, the way they fitnah about, most of them need to have their tongues sliced off!!

One weekly writer on Islamic topics. (their family, in and out). The type who need not have to work for 5generations.ALAKAZUMCORRUPTEDKEZAMM.
- Money just pluck from the Balak dari syurga kayangan.
- Tanah berpuluh ribu ekar, datang dengan tergolek2 cerok mana pun depa tak tau..

Hypocites, thats what they are!!

Justice

Anonymous said...

Rocky,

I will defend the freedom of the Press when:

a) the Press is willing to take responsibility for the veracity of what it publishes, and

b) when the Press is no longer owned, wholly, partly or by proxy, by political parties.

You can't just tell people that they're either for press freedom or against it... what about the massive grey area in between?

-Sheahnee

Vinson said...

Assumption is the mother of all f-ups. good luck on your expectations of what people may or may not support.