Tuesday, February 03, 2009

A Petition to the Pope

Pope Benedict XVI
Holy See, Vatican
Rome, Italy

Your Holiness Pope,

In the Name of Allah, the Compassionate, the Merciful[1]

(i) We, the Christian peoples of Malaysia as undersigned below, would like to obtain a holy decree from you ascertaining that the name of the Deity mentioned in the bible is indeed Allah.
(ii) For more than 20 centuries this Deity has not been mentioned by name and we now understand that His holy name is Allah, the same one that has been used in the Quran of the Muslims ...

Click on The Name Allah: Quid Pro Quo on the Christian Community to read the entire petition.

Read it more than once if you plan to sign it.
Click here and here for some context.

89 comments:

jamil said...

yeah, let's sign the petition.

and from now on -- don't anyone complain about the Azan...

ALLAHU AKBAR
ALLAHU AKBAR
ALLAHU AKBAR

in case, you ignoramuses don't know -- it means Allah is great.

jamil said...

yeah, let's sign the petition.

and from now on -- don't anyone complain about the Azan...

ALLAHU AKBAR
ALLAHU AKBAR
ALLAHU AKBAR

in case, you ignoramuses don't know -- it means Allah is great.

CKGord said...

INFIDELS!!!!

ahmadi said...

The most important thing is what is the translation for God in Bahasa Malaysia? Dont say Indonesia use it so we must use it because we are not using bahasa Indonesia here.WHAT IS TRANSLATION OF GOD IN KAMUS DEWAN BAHASA DAN PUSTAKA?

Anonymous said...

Father Lawrence Andrew from Herald.

Don't be hipocrite. If you want to use the name as Allah in your printing, you must also say your god is Allah in your church.Don't say the 'god', but you must say Allah as your god.If you think your god is great just say Allah is Great in your sermon or prayer.Inform your follower that Allah is god and not Jesus or anything.

You also can use or chant Allahu Akbar because its an Arabic translation of Allah is Great.

ClearMind said...

This is Malaysia, where the MAJORITY is MUSLIM MALAYS

And this country is founded on democracy.....SO GO FIGURE

LogitProbit said...

This petition will unearth their TRUE intention (With support from the Vatican) which is to propagate Christianity to the Malay Muslims.....

skilgannon1066 said...

I am informed that in Lebanon, there are both Arab Muslims and Arab Christians.

The Lebanese Arabs who are Muslims go to their mosques on Fridays and proclaim "ALLAHU AKBAR".

The Lebanese Arabs who are Christians go to their churches on Sundays and proclaim "ALLAHU AKBAR".

Without any problems.

In any case, who can presume to know the mind and thoughts of the Almighty? Which also extends as to by what Name/s He should be called or addressed by.

The sacred Scriptures and Holy Books of both Islam and Christianity place more emphasis on doing good than on the external signs of piety, such as quarrelling over how the Almighty should be addressed.

I think that on the Day of Last Judgement, the Almighty is not going to judge us on how pious we were or whether we strictly observed the niceties and rules mandated by religions - such as by what Name He should be addressed.

You shall be known and judged by what is in your hearts..............

eddy said...

Bro. I think what makes many Muslims here unhappy is Christian Herald's insistence in using the word ALLAH only for the Malay translation of its publication. If Christian Herald is being all enlighthened about using the word ALLAH, then to show its sincerity devoid of any ulterior motives, the word ALLAH should be used in its English publication and other language sections as well.

It would be interesting what the Christian Herald publishers has to say about the brilliant draft petition letter posted by Saudara Apocryphalist. I wonder if they even dare to comment.

KALAM JAUHARI said...

IF that is the case then they acknowledge that indeed Al Quran is the true word of GOD. Muhammad indeed his messenger of Allah because it is Muhammad who brought the name in his message.

Actually the name Allah did indeed mentioned in the bible -the word is Elah. This has been debated by the late Sheikh Deedat.

But they revised their book so many times now they want to go back to the old version. This is the problem when u want play politics with the word of GOD.

The truth is, the jews/christian/ muslim supposed to be worshipping the same Allah. but how can that be now, when one group claim that HE has a SON while the others said HE and HE alone is THE GOD?

And the Abrahamic faith are causing a lot havoc in this world because of this one word.

Damansara said...

Clearly done with MALICE

Never heard any non Muslim in Malaysia call God as Allah; if TUAN ALA or TUHAN ALA, yes. But remember its TUAN or TUHAN, even that in normal conversation only.

Why talk about the word ALLAH being in Bible since 1700++, when the word Tuhan have been used for a long time?

Why does the Bible changed?

Why should we jeopardize the nation’s stability, just because about 18,000 Christians claimed they can’t associate God with other name than Allah.

Truly unnecessary provocation.

Then this will suddenly turn into an Opression, Ketuanan Melayu, Freedom etc issue.. just wait.

It will come to that.

Actually that is the intention

Richguy said...

All fighting for the wrong course. It’s a word to address god. Hindus, Muslims and Christians of Indian origin (Tamils) call god as "IRAIVAN" in Tamil. Nobody fights for rights of whose word it is. The intention must be noble!
It is very wrong to take control of God and his name for selfish purpose. In this case the Muslims should be pleased to know even others make no different when calling god.

Allahu Akhbar
God Is the Greatest
Iraivane Prapanjam ( Iraivane- means God is all. Prapanjam- means the entire universe)
So, any difference in the meaning except language?

May God saves this ignorant people!

jo said...

Looking at the bright side, ALHAMDULILLAH! Even the Christians are believing in ALLAH (indirectly for now).
Damn the devils, Glory to ALLAH!
Al-fatihah.

Anonymous said...

sign the petition!

Damansara said...

Lets do this.

Since there are Christians who TRULY and HONESTLY (clearly without malice) can't associate God with any other word than 'Allah', THIS IS MY OFFER.

I will pay for the cost to construct a 20' x 80' billboard with the word ALLAH to be placed on top of those Churches.

ANY TAKERS?

Shamsul Yunos said...

Excellent stuff, a great way of crystallising the thoughts of millions of Muslims in this country....

The Hearld's ploy is pure and simple to bypass the law of the land and try to convert Malay Muslims through this method....

Anonymous said...

"This petition will unearth their TRUE intention (With support from the Vatican) which is to propagate Christianity to the Malay Muslims....."
- LogitProbit

It can be the other way around too..Christian to Islam... do not tell me you are thinking that majority Malay Muslim here in Malaysia are so stupid..

the truth shall speaks for itself..the truth is not something easy to manipulate with..some cannot even handle it..

-anti hindraf & ultra chingkies-

Anonymous said...

ape ni Rocky,

"We, the Christian peoples of Malaysia as undersigned below...

I am a Muslim and in no way I am going to sign the petition this because of the above clause.

This petition is for the Christian only and not for others.

Meow said...

Firstly, the Pope is not the head of all Christians. He is the leader of Catholics. Secondly, The Bible is translated in many languages and translated versions are used everywhere. For e.g., if it is a Spanish Bible, the spanish word for God will be used, which if I'm not mistaken is Dios. We don't have Malay bibles here. Therefore, Indonesian Bibles are used as they are similar to Malay. And the word used for God is Allah. That's all. No one is saying ALL Bibles will use the word Allah. This is the link to an online Indonesian Bible. http://www.bibledbdata.org/onlinebibles/indonesian_tb/index.htm
Please read the first line of this
http://www.bibledbdata.org/onlinebibles/indonesian_tb/01_001.htm

Anonymous said...

well rocky,

you must ask your boss first (mahathir) before you give your comment on this matter.

zamri, ppbss

Knights Templar said...

“Nothing is as dangerous as an ignorant friend; a wise enemy is to be preferred.”

Anonymous said...

Folks, it is established here (from the many comments that are pro Herald) that putting the word Allah in their publication is not because of religious necessity. It is only a lingual issue. They gave many examples of how the name Allah is being used since before Islam or in the case of Malaysia, since around 1800. Many examples were cited about the word ‘Allah’ being used in Christian books. All this amount to a single argument that the pursuit of using the word Allah is just because - it has been used before as part of the language.

Therefore, I have come to conclude that it is indeed a lingual issue. They did not give any examples such as the Christians’ faith will be eroded if the name Allah is NOT put in their Bible (indeed, in the bibles world over, 99% of them do not have the name Allah in the scriptures).

As it is, even if they had replaced the word ‘Tuhan’ for ‘Allah’ in their publication, it will not jeopardise their faith (from the many stories we heard, the Christians world over themselves including here in Malaysia do not pray to the name Allah in their prayers).

Now, the crux of the matter is, since it IS JUST A LINGUAL ISSUE from the Christian point of view, but at the same time, it unfortunately impinges on the religious sensitivities of THE MUSLIMS, then here is the question. WHICH IS THE MORE IMPORTANT factor that needs to be considered and give weight to?

Logic dictates it should be the Muslims point of view. It does not matter whether it violates the minority rights so on and so forth. That is not the issue here. Do not cloud the issue with the bogus and hypocritical cries from the so called agents of disunity in shouting freedom of speech, minority rights etc… They are there because they hate the government. But that is a different matter altogether. In this case, they had inadevertently mixed two different issue into one. Hence, the ulterior motives are unveiled in front of our eyes.

Thank you and God bless.

JMD-

Anonymous said...

The name Allah comes from the Arabic Al-Ilah, 'The Creator.'
'Al' carries the meaning 'The' - the definite article to mean something specific. The Creator then refers to God...not gods but God, the one and only Supreme Being. If Christians with their belief in the Holy Trinity - the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit - wants to use the word, by all means, do. But which god are they referring to?

Servant of Allah

Anonymous said...

Oh my god!

Islamic matters is better addressed by PAS, being the Champion of Islam.

Will any PAS ulamak care to comment?

A GOOD MAN DOES NOTHING.

Anonymous said...

only those who have small minute hearts will dabble with this sort of things.

-matrix

Anonymous said...

I DON'T KNOW WHAT IT IS THAT MAKE MUSLIMS SO INSECURE EVEN IN THEIR OWN COUNTRY.

WHY THEY FEEL THEY HAVE THE GUMPTION TO TELL WHAT OTHERS CAN AND CANNOT DO.

MUJAHID

Dr. Tee said...

The use of the word “ALLAH” by the Christians is a non-issue, made into an ISSUE by some UMNO fascists in the Malaysian cabinet, who have been behaving akin to the Big schoolyard Bullies.

For the information of the uninformed, the Bahasa Malaysia church services (Catholics, Anglicans, Sidang Injil Borneo, Evangilical etc.) in East Malaysia, Sabah and Sarawak, have been conducting their worships using the Al Kitab ever since I can remember. The word "Allah" is part and parcel of the services, hymns and their publications. So, why the authorities wants to banned it? Have they got the right to do so? Isn't this persecution of the Christians? WHY?

Now, since the word "Allah" is used in the Al Kitab or Injil, will the Malay bible be banned after this too? How about church services in Bahasa Malaysia? The use of the BM word "kitab", "Injil", "Amin", "Malaikat", "Nabi", names of the nabi-nabi - Isa, Yusuf, Musa, Ibrahim etc.? Will the Iban bible, which uses the word “Tuhan Allah” be banned too? Where will this stop?

Why do you want to interfere in our religion? Why are you persecuting us? Is it okay if we interfere with yours?

We are not questioning the position of Islam as the official religion under the Federal Constitution (please don't twist the issue at hand). We just want to be left alone and to continue to have the right to call our God in Bahasa Malaysia by any name we wish to call HIM. Is this too much to ask for?

I wish also to remind those who are “buta sejarah” to read deeper into the real Malaysian history. No, not the UMNO version. I wish to bring to you’re attention an agreement given to Sabahan (and sarawakians too), during the formation of the Federation of Malaysia, known as the 20 points Agreement, which is not only an agreement written on paper, but also carved on stone! Go see the "Batu Sumpah" in Keningau. This is the real Social Contract. Point 1, of the 20 Points, which is on Religion reads: "While there was no objection to Islam being the national religion of Malaysia there should be no State religion in North Borneo, and the provisions relating to Islam in the present Constitution of Malaya should not apply to North Borneo".

Salam damai,
Dr.AT

Anonymous said...

once again the weak minded and the weak in faith malay muslims have their backs against the wall..It' way too easy to get them 'confused'. Kesian kalau lahir sebagai melayu......vic.

Anonymous said...

The country has been reasonably peaceful as we respected each other's differences. Why change that now over the word 'Allah'.

The word Allah itself is a miracle linguistically. It is Arabic for the One and only God. No adjective can be ascribed to it.

For the word God, you can give it feminity - Goddess, plurality - Gods, size - Godlets, trinity and what have you. But for the word Allah, He is the One and Only, the Eternal and Absolute. He begets not, nor is He begotten and there is none like unto Him.

The word Allah cannot be used in any other context like the word God.

If the small group of Catholics (most other Christian denominations do not agree on this)are intend on using the word Allah, then they must attest that there is only One God and not a 3 in 1 combo which is a concept from ancient Greek mythology and Hinduism inject into Christianity by Saul ......

Accept the Oneness of God, then you can use the word Allah. Having done that, make sure that you use the word Allah consistently in your church sermons and throughout your Christian denominations.

It will be great to hear the ringing chants of Allahu akbar (Allah is Great) from the churches every Sunday morning.


Truth Seeker

legion said...

you real class act la rocky..

One day you're downing beers, the next day you get all self rightous about Islam..

You real smooth la bro...

backStreetGluttons said...

Its incredible to what length people will go to to trivialise religion , in the name of religion. hypocrites fighting hypocrites as are liars fighting liars.

Welcome to the real world folks. Taking sides is futile and even more hypocritical !

Jed Yoong said...

dumb.

alice's in wonderland said...

The lesson that everyone got to learn is "GOD ONLY HELP THOSE WHO HELP THEMSELVE".

So everyone should denounce their religion as much as possible and keep GOD in your hearth.

Anonymous said...

Rocky,

God is Tuhan in Bahasa Melayu.

God is Allah in arabic.

Boy are we confused, or are some people pretenting to be confused.

Atas Awan

religion sucks said...

followers of 2 obsolete desert cult, bickering over which desert cult is greater.

funnily enough, we're not even in the desert.

man, some people need to get with the times. this is 2009, not 580AD.

Anonymous said...

Doesn't God has a name already??

Jehovah???

Jason said...

This is getting more and more confusing. Why the need to address this petition to the Pope? I'm a Christian but not a Catholic and the Pope is of no relevance to my faith!

Anyway, it's really sad when religion is politicised in a multi-religious country like Malaysia.

If Allah has been used in East Malaysia for many years then leave it as it is, why the need to ban its usage out of sudden when nothing was done about it long ago.

We need to achieve a compromise. How about restricting the usage to East Malaysia and bibles in Bahasa Indonesia or Indonesian churches for that matter?

Anonymous said...

kita tidak mahu jadi seperti ini:

1) http://www.motherjones.com/news/feature/2002/05/stealth.html

2) http://www.joshuaproject.net/joshua-project.php

3) http://www.joshuaproject.net/countries.php?rog3=MY&sf=primarylanguagename&so=desc

Terima kasih kepada http://satdthinks.blogspot.com

Terung Mahawangsa

Anonymous said...

you lot is funny.

don't get emotional in this. let's not be like the indonesians (killing each other for the wrong reason)

let's just rationalize to the christians why the malaysian muslims need to relate to the word 'Allah' only in Islam.

but hey, jebat's got a point there. and so does other commentors.

let's just sign a petition, but not a signature to justify religious war.

not that we're afraid, it would just mean that we're weak.

the loudest one in the room, is the weakest one in the room.

*sunshine

Hansac said...

Since when is ALLAH a Malay word? Or an Iban word? Or a Kadazan word? Or a Kenyah/Kelabit/Kayan word? Since when?

Blessed are the Christians who believe in ALLAH.

Anonymous said...

Maybe they should think about using the Jewish word Yahweh, if they really want the original or earlier word that preceded Arabic Allah...

But then, if Allah Is used in all Bible, It might draw interest from Christians to learn about Allah, finding out similarities and differences and bring more converts to Islam????

MM

Libation Bearer said...

Simple.

We want to use Allah in Bible because the fact that Indonesians uses the Name legitimises the action, then we get all chinese and non-malays to change their names to malay names because precendence has been set by the Indonesians. No, not the precedence regarding name/names. Precedence of the fact that whatever they do can legitimise whatever we do here too.

Tak payah susah susah pikir maaa....

Anonymous said...

What about we change the rukun negara to:

Kepercayaan Kepada ALLAH
Kesetiaan kepada Raja dan Negara...

and we made it compulsory for ALL school going children to recite it at every assembly with one hand raised..

ok or not..???

adnan

Anonymous said...

Ya, can we have references to Nabi Isa in all Muslims books changed to Jesus Christ as well ?

So, who do we send this petition to ? The Ayatollahs of Irans, the Mufti of Mecca, who ?

Unfortunately "people of the book" does not respect each other.

If all of you claims to believe there is only one God, why then do you claim your God to be your own and all others to be false ?

Have it occur to you that other people may be worshipping the same universal God ? Since there is only one God... eh ?

Old Fart said...

Simple English, and yet you choose to, mischievously, by pass that and accuse that the manner or context in which the WORD Allah as used within the Christian community is as a pronoun.

The WORD Allah as used in the Bahasa Indonesia translation is as a noun and never a pronoun.

The word Allah when used in Christian literature as well as in the Herald is as a noun.

And if not mischief I don't know what else this is.

No where is it stated that the name of God is Allah!!

Rocky, you having been a professional wordsmith, unlike me, should be very well aware of this.

You carrying this posting only clearly shows mischievous intent on your part. Shame on you once again!!

Once again if there are names claimed by God Himself in the Bible it is Yawweh and a couple of others. Not Allah.

Anonymous said...

no need to read.. just sign

ChengHo said...

One of many meaning of ALLAH is the oneness this is contradict with the trinity concept? unless father andrew is telling the whole world the trinity concept is wrong.

Anonymous said...

guys,,,

lets be positive about it,,it might as well convert the cristians to be muslim too ?

if not why not ?

God

Anonymous said...

(heha) : the fallen evil, " ...hehehe...hahaha...hehehe !!"

Anonymous said...

The God of Islam is the same God of Christian and is the same God as the Jew.

How can there be different name for the Same?

Christian should accept the call of Azan. It is call to pray to the same God.

Why fight?

Anonymous said...

Kalu kurang tahu ugama, jangan lah cari nahas Rocky.
Baik tulis boleh tak Mahathir jadi PM balik.
Lagi baguih.

Old Fart said...

And oh Rocky,

Obviously you are promoting this petition.

By the way, who is Apocryphalist?

Considering he even finds it in him to aspire to petition the Pope, surely he must be proud to declare himself to those he is asking for support!!

Anonymous said...

Let's get things straight, the publication is in Bahasa Melayu and in Bahasa Melayu, the word for god is "tuhan"..."allah" is a borrowed word from Arabic. If the Herald is going to be in Arabic, then feel free to use "allah" but if in Bahasa Melayu, why u want to use the word "allah"???? I am a baffled hindu!!!

nick name : pink panther

Anonymous said...

They should change word jesus to ALLAH in bible as well, not just in malay version of whatever article or paper.

~~Rejang - sarawak~~

Anonymous said...

If the argument that the use of "Allah" is for the hidden purpose of propagating Christianity to Muslims....

... would'nt it be even more true that it would have led Christians to Islam instead, since we are constantly bombarded with Islamic message through all TVs, and mass media ?

Also Muslims cannot convert to other religion, despite Article 11 of our Constitution affirming to freedom to religion and follows ones own conscience.

Do Muslims have a choice in their religion ?

Try asking Lina Joy, who have to migrate to other country instead of able to get her Islam status changed on her ICs ?

So, what does this tells you about the deep-seated INSECURITY amongst UMNO-Muslims in this country ?

paloi bin mulau said...

if u ask christian who speak bahasa in borneo,,who is your god? u think what is their answer? any1 care to answer that?

Al-Sadr said...

Dear Brother & Sister;


May peace be upon us .

I had a question if GOD @ Allah indeed , then how does does a believer called the other side ? Satan or devil?

I'm confused.

San Peng said...

@ Libation Bearer,

Your " ... whatever they (Indonesian) do can legitimise whatever we do here too..." simple logic (that's what they want, that how they rationalize), should fit nicely to how we Malaysian can solve problem of acute racial polarization.

Yeah we should get the minority to assimilate into the majority. The Indonesian did it. Why not here?

BrightEyes said...

Actually, I'm gonna petition MAS, MASWings & AirAsia to give 'Really Free' flights to East Malaysia. That means totally free... no tax, fuel surcharge & other hidden costs.

Because judging from comments here, looks like many West Malaysians could use a study-trip to learn about the culture & religious way of life in Sabah & Sarawak. It may cure their ignorance, but I doubt it would erase their hubris.


Looking forward to scuba in Sipadan anyway...

Meor said...

You want to use the name Allah, you dont want to use the name Allah,...
Who cares (Maybe God doesnt even care).
As long as you call yourself a Muslim when you follow its tenets, and as long as you call yourself a Christian when you go church, thats fine by me....
Now can all of us just go back to feeding our children, keeping them safe and maybe with some resources to spare at the end of the month..help others?
There's too many glorified salesmen out there

Anonymous said...

Dear fellow Malaysians, after reading through some of the comments from this blog and those from Nuraini's, I came across this little piece of commentary from, if he is for real, a native christian bumiputra, here's what he said:

" Anonymous said...

I am a Sarawakian, a christain and a native of Sarawak. Our ancestors were headhunters once and had mostly believed in Animism. Then some fine days -way before Malaysia was born some Tuans came to Sarawak preaching christainity. God knows what the converted natives called God then. Since the natives couldn’t speak English the missionary priests opted to learn and speak the native languages instead - predominantly the Iban language. To see the Tuans speak Ibans for instance was quite amusing to the simple longhouse folks. Many missionary schools were set up in Sarawak whereby the children of Ibans, Lauts, Bidayuh, Melanaus, China, Tambi (mostly baieee) attended. The teachers at the mission schools (majority priests) would then require sutdents (irrespective of their race, religion or religionless - to pray a morning prayer in English or even in Iban - a christain way, with the sign of cross, etc. like : dalam nama apai, nama anak enggau roh kudus….

Notice that - where the heck that language “roh kudus” was coming from? It’s definitely not from the Iban, Bidayuh, Kelabit, etc.

We the christain natives have been hearing our Tuan whiteman priests preaching in Iban langauge who referred to God as “Allah Taala”…but mind you most of the natives did not know how to read and write, so they heard something like “Alah Tala”…but no issue for us. The point is whether the origin of this “Alah Tala” was from Saudi Arabia, Ireland, Russia, Sipadan, Timbuktu, or wherever, we don’t care! What we care is that we have been using it and refer to God.

But now after so many donkey years…if you like to count from 1800, well that’s quite a lot of years (although some Ibans then were still busy pursuing head hunting activities and tribal warfare) - but now, yes only now, after the formation of Malaysia, our brother Muslims in Malaysia, mainly the West Malaysians - Orang Malaya we called them in our local slang, AGAINST the native christains to use the word!

Sensitive or not, minority or majority or not, all these depend on which angle you are looking at it from. From our Dayak christain angle, we oppose such as a call, as we think it is unfair and discriminate is the minority bumiputra. Had this cropped up during the formation of Malaysia, Tun Jugah then would have said “NO”. So, is this now an issue the Herald is trying to depend. What’s wrong they depend? We from East Malaysia say now to our brother Malays, come on big brothers, please give us a chance!

Empanggup
6:10 PM "


I hope the original writer can forgive me and allow me to post it here.

Here's a man with a plea. And yet, all of us, outsiders, outsiders to his own cultural upbringing, outsiders of his own original historical circumstances, are trying to dictate what he, his own people, his fellow villagers, should worship and behave.

To be honest, whether its going to be Allah or Tuhan in the weekly publication, does not matter much to me in my existing lifestyle.

I had a close non-muslim bumiputra friend who happened to have gone far enough to work in a KL Multinational company, which is probably a first among his village, if not from among his own race in recent history, dying from Colon Cancer.

Throughout his life, he has been active in educating his villagers to expose to modern educations, and further job advancement in big cities, bringing up the standard of living of his fellow villagers.

Before he died, he PLEA to his employer, that, his position, upon his death, is to be filled by another new employee of his own race.

He now has passed away, where his funeral was attended by many of his villagers, who flew all the way to KL, paying respect from people from all communities even from the cities.

This is the same PLEA that I can sense from the anonymous poster.

For God's, Tuhan's or Allah's sake, let our beloved countrymen move on, and not be embroiled in unnecessary squabble.

I also sincerely plea to all who have anger in our heart, lets not be fallen into the trap of people with motives, hence fallen into the pit with blindfolds.

Malaysian-in-tears
Selangor

monsterball said...

Pope..Dalai Lama..Imans...and their assistants....all are playing politics with religions.
This is the era....religions have no meanings to human beings.
Put ALL the faithfuls together..it makes up less than those who seek truths to strengthen their minds and free them...from greed and undesirables.
China is the forerunner to free minds.
Who cares what the Pope opinions will be..deciding or saying.
In Malaysia.....even worst. Islam is destroyed by UMNO and PAS.
Middle road ...living in harmony and in truthfulness.. we must be...but not at the expense.. to depend on a political party.
Here in Malaysia...Muslims are being tested to the limits for their greediness and surrender their souls to one political party. That's the lowest form of promoting a good religion.

Anonymous said...

Rocky,

Can you ballet to the tune of SwanLake?

If no, then just let this topic be handled ONLY by those who are truly qualified in this area to come out with their views.

Even Prof Dr Hamka was humbled, felt himself not intellectual enough to enable him to cover every aspects of our Quran in coming up with his Tafsiran.

Took him more than 20years, still felt he knew so little!!

And can you imagine a nonMuslim trying to come up with their Tafsiran? What a joke!!

Beringus

Anonymous said...

i suppose we all worship the same God though we interprete him in different ways. however, that should not never affect the way we address HIM for that would make him even more angry. The way we worship may be different but the God is still the same God.

Monotheism

Anonymous said...

Meow,

Thanks for the links. So many bibles, all 70+ of them!.

Tell me, which one do the Catholics in Malaysia use?

The Indonesian (BIS), Indonesian (Terjemahan Lama) or the Indonesian (Terjemahan Baru)?

Or the Revised Malay Bible Alkitab Berita Baik which was launched at the Trinity Methodist Church in Petaling Jaya?

Catholics using a Protestant bible?.

From The BSM website:

"Similarly average Indonesians will read words in the Malay Bible with the more usual Indonesian sense, such as banci in Lk. 2:1-2 (TMV96) will be understood by average Indonesians as ‘transvestite’, for the Indonesian equivalent is sensus ‘census’. Likewise mengintip in Ps. 10:8 (TMV96) will be understood by average Indonesians as ‘peeping’ rather than ‘to spy’, for in Indonesian the term is memata-matai or mengintai. The Malay word memansuhkan in Rom. 3:31 (TMV96) is meaningless to ordinary Indonesian readers."

Can we have that in a divinely revealed book?.

There are problems with translated versions of the bible aren't there? Why don't you use the original language?

As far as sacred texts go, these bibles are actually different books, each one using different words and each one saying different things.


JAAC

monsterball said...

Why are few of my messages not approved?

Anonymous said...

What's the real purpose of this posting? To fish for bigots to crawl out of their shit holes?

Alibaba

BLOGSTOP40 said...

Christians should just give and take. Did not the bible says in Luke 6:29 that "If someone strikes you on one cheek, turn to him the other also. If someone takes your cloak, do not stop him from taking your tunic".

Anyways, the Malay translation for God is Tuhan. The Arab translation is Allah. So, if we are using a Malay translation in the bible, why not just use Tuhan?. If the whole translation is in Arab, then I would totally agree that Allah should be used.

Furthermore, our rukunegara says "Kepercayaan Kepada Tuhan". I am grateful enough that it is not "Kepercayaan kepada Allah". Then, it would look like we are an islamic state. Will Christians protest if the Rukunegara is mentioned as "Kepercayaan kepada Allah"?

Before you whack or accuse me, let me tell you all first that I am a Christian and this should not be an issue at all.

jonathan said...

Atas Awan,

Check your fact - god in arabic is Rabb or ILAH.

But Allah is the name of The only one God of Almighty.

Anonymous said...

Sorry Roc , you are out of sync.The trouble with some Malays who are not well versed in Islam and really dont know how to rationalise what is fair.They have a one track mind that their religion is THE ONLY RELIGION IN THE WORLD.They become blurr not using the god gifted brain of thinking.Your tirade in Nuraina 's blog and warp defence of your thoughts shows a tinge of a hidden agenda of being umno's spinmaster!

Careful! less your reputation of

fair reporting ends up as cyber

GARBAGE!


Yellow Jacket

Anonymous said...

To The Herald Catholic,

If you are adamant in using the word Allah in your publication and sermons despite the protest against it by the Muslims in our peaceful beloved Malaysia, I suggest that you look up and understand the true meaning of the word "JIHAD".

Allahu'Akbar.

Anonymous said...

Rocky, Have u read Demi Negara's latest posting?

Very revealing lah... need to expose all these Christian Missionaries who had been actively working against the Constyituion [Article 11]

Lets crank it!!!!!

-Rojak Buah

Bunnies said...

I am a Christian and I find this whole issue about using the word ALLAH by Christians ridiculous and malicious!

If there is a need to translate the meaning or word to represent GOD, than just use TUHAN la.. What's with the confusion!? Aiyoo... some more now send dont know what idiotic petition to the POPE!? Crazy!

Apocryphalist said...

Dear Rocky,

Thank you for linking to my article. Perhaps we want to unravel this conflict via a linguistic way.

The two kinds of nouns that are in common use are: Common noun and Proper noun.

Common noun: Teacher, goalkeeper, engineer, master, Lord, God

Proper noun: Kassim, Latchmikal Buntusamy, Hacken Lee, Richard Nixon, Allah.

For more than two thousand years, the patriarchial Deity worshipped by the Christians in the New Testament Bible has been addressed by theCOMMON NOUN God. From then onwards till the present day, nowhere is there a SINGLE reference to ANY proper noun made to identify this Deity in the Christian world, in particular the biblical literatures. And therefore in daily prayers, in hymns, christmas carols, recitals, it would always be God, Our Father in Heaven, Lord and so on. But never proper names or proper nouns. It is as though this God doesn’t have a name. At least that’s what the biblical new testament would have as portrayed.

But in actuality in the old testament this God DOES have a name and proper noun. It is “Yahweh”. The Old Testament is a sort of twin-brother to the new testament: it is printed and binded together side by side till there exists a massive misunderstanding by some people that it too forms part of the gospel brought about by Jesus.

Now suddenly, this Deity, which doesn’t have a Name in the new testament, suddenly acquire a PROPER noun for the “malay-speaking” peoples, And what could that be? The more closer-to-home-for-the-jews-and-christians Yahweh? Nope. It’s going to be Allah, the proper name of the God of the Muslims. Why?

Because the expression “Kami menyembah Yahweh” will not scoop that much earth in conversion agendas as opposed to “Kami menyembah Allah” if the target audience and would-be-convertee will flinch from it right from the beginning.

“Gila lah Ignatius anak Kanting tu. Tadi dia bawak aku gi gereja dia pas tu semua orang start buat doa diorang ‘Wahai Yahweh Tuhan yang Agong’. Tunggang langgang aku lari keluar.”

As opposed to

“Eh apa kau nak risau ni Mat. Tadi Jenny bawak aku masuk gereja okayyyyy jer. Dia orang pun berdoa pakai nama Allah jugak”

What the Jennys or even the Ignatius Kantings do not tell our unsuspecting but love-smitten Mamat here is that in hymns, in carols, in personal and silent prayers deep in their hearts in the middle of the night, nary a time would Jenny and Ignatius use Allah. What the Jennys and the Ignatiuses do not tell our Mamat Keramat here is that the next step is to instill upon him that this Allah in actuality has a Son: not a conceptual, abstract offspring but an actual begotten one: the article of faith which has been installed in Mamat to be absolutely and irrevocably wrong as a Muslim. In fact the christians the world over disbelieve that Allah is the name of this God that they are praying to. They don’t? Well then the petition or letter to the Pope as I have written in JebatMustDie will do a lot in clarifying this policy regarding the name of this God, as ruled out by the holy decree.

[For those bent on highlighting the fact that they don’t recognise the Pope as their spiritual figurehead, I have written in the same breath there that a similar letter/petition should be written addressed to other heads of denominations. And oh yes for those Catholics who do, shall we write just one letter or two? One? Uhmmm… you must be forgetting Pope Shenouda. And one or two others. Hehehehe. No seriously folks. Millions of christians regard that HE is the one representing God on earth, and not Benedict XVI. Mmmm shouldn’t people be better off cleaning the conflicts in their own houses first before engaging a fresh new conflict with others? But then ah… conflicts are the staple foods of the insecure.]

Is this common noun - proper noun thing too heavy for some people to comprehend? Then let me make an analogy. If we go about the grammatical insistence of translation by the christians then the following verse that COULD have been in the bible:-

“The postman rode quickly to each apartment delivering his letters. When he had finished he went back to the post office. All the other postmen there thought he is such a hardworking and exemplary postman”

will now be rendered

“Kasim mengayuh basikalnya laju-laju meyerahkan surat kepada setiap rumah. Setelah selesai Kassim kembali semula ke pejabat Pos. Kesemua Kassim-Kassim yang lain [cos we are made to believe there are more than one Postman/Kassim] berpendapat bahawa Kassim adalah seorang posmen yang mithali dan rajin”

And to add to the inanity of it all, not to mention insult, a few pages before this there exists a similar “laporan posmen” that invariably, clearly and glaringly mentions that the name of this postman is Samad, not Kassim!!

In a theological manner, those who knew Kassim becomes irritated because not only they got the name wrong, but the Kassim that they know has a different route, a different path, written clearly in his work-manifest. In fact, the Kassim that they know works alone and never with other “Kassims”.

I bring in this simpleton analogy because comments elsewhere that I read arguing against the case seem to be a bit …. intellectually challenged and I just thought that if I can downgrade the complexity of my argument, it could be comprehended better.

Why then do people insist on using Kassim and not Samad? Well, Kijang Mas in Deminegara expounds the reasoning in a very concise manner in his new posting of his. Warning: no holds barred there. Some pills are a bit bitter to swallow.

Apocryphalist

Anonymous said...

Consider this:

"In the name of ALlah the Most Beneficient, the Most Merciful";

and

"In the me of ALlah, the Son and the Holy Ghost".

Got difference or not? Got problem or not? Confusing or not?

Then why not, "In the name of Siva/Ganesh/Buddha, the Son and the Holy Ghost".


MRSM Kalae Chepo 66/73

Kersanipertiwi said...

Bro Rocky,

I would like to make one thing very clear. If the Christians want to use the word 'ALLAH' because they claim that it is simply an Arabic word that means 'God', then their whole premise is wrong.

In Arabic, 'God' is 'Rabb' as in 'Ya Rabbi' (My God), 'Wa Huwwa Rabbul azeem' (and He is God, The Greatness).

Allah is a 'personal name', if you will, one of the 99 names of the Rabb that is worshipped by Muslims.

If Christians say they can use Allah and God interchangeably, then they should consider aslo using Vishnu, Siva... or even.. Kali!

Anonymous said...

In this game of reverse psychology and tongue twister... we will eventually see what is meant by the phrase:

"peluru makan tuan"..


To all my Muslims brothers..do not be so stupid jumping like monkeys triggered by some self-agenda political institutions..

If u really believe in Allah, The One and Only..just relax & watch how this drama will end up eating themselves who try to manipulate with The Creator (Al-Khaliq) own Name (for some gain?)..

Suprising indeed althought Muslims do have mazhab sunnah-wal-jamaah & syiah etc. still the refered constitutional script is the Al-Quran (Arabic script)..unlike Christian that have so many version Bibles (which one the original?)..why they want to further confused themselves?

Yet i'm still waiting respons to my previous post in your Quran campaign post..bro Rocky..hmm..quite frustrating indeed...

I do support that petition.. Let us see how the Pope respons... This Herald is sending him a bomb..how is he going to difuse for damage control..haha..

Allahuakhbar..

Well said..after this we will see nobody bitching out loud complaining the azan early in the morning....takkan nak menjilat ludah sendiri balik kan..? Funny...haha....

:) Bravo smartass...! Splendid! People can fools people sometimes, but definitely not all the time..its already 2009 lah..

-anti hindraf & ultra chingkies-

Rocky's Bru said...

Old Fart asks Apocrphalist to unmask himself:
"Considering he even finds it in him to aspire to petition the Pope, surely he must be proud to declare himself to those he is asking for support!!"

---------------

OF!

I know who Apocryphalist is. He has declared himself to me. And I know who you are. Both you and Apo have your own reasons to remain "anonymous", so be it. I hope one day both of you will drop the anonymity.

Anonymous said...

Thats the problem with the Cristian people, they change their bible's content as their wishes. So do they think their bible as pure as the original given to Jesus Al Masih. Anyway the Cristian will keep on doing what they had been doing for the past 2000 years. Keep on changing their bible. Beyond help.

monsterball said...

Some Christianity pastors and priests ...religious teachers..have told their followers....they can ignore Jesus as God.
They are now focusing the power of faith...keeping up with time and situations.
That is a smart move.
That is why..you get so many Christians here agreeing not to use the word "ALLAH"
Actually no big deal.
Why all the fuss?
One cannot be a better Muslim or Christian..uttering or defending a words.
It is how you conduct yourself..every day till the day you die...matter most.

Jonathan's Parody of BolehLand said...

What dopes to seek support of the Pope!
Didn't allah give you the strength
To even go to the extent
Of sacrificing your life
for the Love of Allah.

Ya Allah, ampunilah kami seperti kami mengampuni yang bersalah kepada kami.
Amin.

see www.jonathan66-my.blogspot.com

Anak said...

What happen to us all. Let me rephrase it..what happen to you people in Tanah Melayu? As far as I have been a Catholic, I have know the name of God as Allah Taala in the Iban version of the Holy Bible. We in Sarawak have been using it for for donkey years in Sarawak. We even have live broadcasting of Sunday prayers on our RTM radio. But never, I say never did we the Sarawakians, the ones who are said to be far behind you the educated Semenanjung people, have any argument of sort on our religions. We, the Dayaks, Malays, Melanaus and etc, respect each others' religion.
The usage of the name Allah is a non issue for us. Shame on you Semenanjung people. You are all to stubborn.
The word Allah Taala has been used like forever among us Christians in Sarawak. However, despite the spelling, the pronounciation is different.
In Malay or Islam, Allah Taala is pronounced Aullah Ta'ala, whilst in Sarawak it is pronounced Al'la Tala.
The word God is also translated to Iban as Petara, Tuhan or Apai.
Have the Muslims is Sarawak been misled, confused or converted to Christianity due to the usage of the word Allah by Christians? Remember, we have live broadcast of Mass services on the radio every Sunday. The answer is no. This is because the Sarawakian Muslims are better off that the Semenanjung. The Sarawakian Muslims are not fanatics. They hold strongly to the teachings of Islam and nobody can sway their akidah. They have strong Iman. As for the Semenanjung, there were lots of cases of "ajaran sesat". One of the ajaran sesat is the Kerajaan Langit. Some even proclaimed that they are the last prophet of Islam. Have they been misled by Christianity? I guess not.

There is a way to solve this problem. That is for the Christians of all denominations not to use BAHASA MELAYU for their Bible. Stick to English as you don't have to translate it. The church authority need not to worry because we prefer Bible in English instead of Bahasa Melayu.
As for the Bible in Iban or other local dialects, it can be changed to Alah Tala.
It should satisfy the Muslims in Semenanjung. Should these changes are made, but the problems still exist, it would be obvious that some people want to put some pressure on us Christians in Malaysia. For what reason I don't know but for sure they are just fanatics who didn't really follow the true teachings of Islam which promote co-existenceness among the multiracial, multireligious society as practised by Prophet Muhammad (saw) after his Highness captured Makkah from the idol worshippers.

doggie dog said...

Sometimes I wonder if you guys are arguing over something that you are equally knowledgeable or just a tin kosong!

Esp that guy Bunnies.. You put Christians to shame.. I wonder if you are a convert or those sesat non Catholic Christians.. I bet it hit u where it hurt the most huh? Too bad!

maybe u guys shud brush up ur knowledge... if u wish to read more, just wikepedia Allah...

Allah (Arabic: الله‎, Allāh, IPA: [ʔalˤːɑːh] pronunciation (help·info)) is the standard Arabic word for 'God.'[1] While the term is best known in the West for its use by Muslims as a reference to God, it is used by Arabic-speakers of all Abrahamic faiths, including Christians and Jews, in reference to "God".[2][1][3] The term was also used by pagan Meccans as a reference to the creator-god, possibly the supreme deity in pre-Islamic Arabia.[4]

Anonymous said...

This is getting nowhere. It is like asking a kid which came first:

The chicken or the egg? And a week later asking The egg or chicken?

A GOOD MAN DOES NOTHING.

Anonymous said...

Very good idea, Rocky. Can we get you to lead this by first writing to and getting the approval of our gov.? I guess it will be Syed Hamid Albar and Zaid Hamidi. Without their approval, even if the Pope agrees to have the word Allah in the bible, we still cannot use the word Allah in bible in Malaysia.

So, Rocky, could you please start the ball rolling by first writing to the relevant authority in Malaysia first? Thanks.

Mohd Sidek

Anonymous said...

My 2 sen worth of opinion,

The jews call their God elohim, YHWH (Yahweh) and many other names.Elohim is plural for root word eloh and I understand that elohim signify plural of respect instead of numbers. Elohim (eloh) is near to Allah.

Jesus according to the Bible said in Aramic ,"Eli Eli lama sabachtani" meaning My Lord, My Lod, why has thou forsaken me" (Matthew 27:45-46) when he was crucified.

Somehow the jews could not pronounce in full God's name YHWH. In Hebrew YHWH stand for Ye He We He (similar to in Arabic Ya Ha Wau Ha). Some smart guy put in vowels and YHWH become Yahweh. Jehovah witness change the YHWH word to JHVH and put in vowel and hurrah, their god name become Jehovah.

I see there shouldn't be any problem for the Christians to call their god Allah. I wonder why stop on this. This problem can be easily resolved if the christians en masse embraced Islam.

After all, Jesus never said 'He is God and never ever instructed his disciples to worship him'. Instead he was a practising jew to the letter. His word as in Mark 12:29-34 "And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord" is similar to Moses advices to his flock; Deuteronomy 6:4 — Hear, O Israel: The LORD thy God is one LORD, also similar to Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) preaching to the Arabs "[Quran 112:1] Proclaim, "He is the One and only GOD. "

Anonymous said...

But I have Christian friends who think the Herald should give it up already. It's not worth the fight.
Pals of All

Dayana said...

I'm sorry, but I must speak up... this is VERY insulting... and intolerant of other people's religion. It is downright rude.

Islam is meant to be a gentle religion. Islam is meant to lead others to enlightenment.

"Fight in the cause of Allah against those who fight you, but do not transgress limits. Allah does not love transgressors" (2:190)
Shame on you.

Surely, you'd not want people of other faiths to make a mockery of Islam and the Prophet this way, especially when they have not understood the religion fully.

Which you have done to Christianity by grouping all Christians under the umbrella of the Pope.

Anonymous said...

God, Allah, Tuhan, Lord, Father, Neptune, Venus, Christ... What is in a word? God or Tuhan in Malay may exist in a mortal form like Christ or God that has lineage which is represented by spirits like Neptune, Venus, Shiva, Brahma etc.
Allah is very specific and has no lineage or does not intervene to the mortal being as Allah has no heritage. Muhammad is no son of Allah whereby Jesus is God but is a son to the Lord. Therefore the term used for Allah is not God or Tuhan but is a term specific to a God that command rather than interact cause we are all given the freedom of will.