Wednesday, February 04, 2009

Demi Negara, Demi Agama ..

"Oh Tuhan, won' t you buy me a Mercedes-Benz ...?".
Another significant blogger has come out very strongly against the attempt to hijack the name "Allah" from the Muslims in this country. Demi Negara says the great urge to use "Allah" in Malay translation of the Bible is NOT due to a sudden patriotic love for Bahasa Malaysia on the part of certain quarters.

Rather, it is an attempt to confuse and deceive, he writes here.

Some notes: This is the third posting on the "Allah" issue I've linked in the last week or so [read here and here]. Some people are claiming that the use of the word Allah in Malay Bibles is opposed only by Syed Hamid Albar, the Minister, and Umno. That is NOT true. The Christian Herald's demand to use the word "Allah" is causing a quiet but growing anxiety among the Malay-Muslim community in blogosphere and out there. And it's gone beyond our shores here.

47 comments:

Anonymous said...

lets nail these attempt to evangelicise the East Malaysian muslims in the ass!

=Menggatal=

Anonymous said...

Rocky,

I think you have a hidden agenda in playing this issue up....and that is why I find you no more credible as an impartial blogger. Really you are doing a great disservice to the country. Enough said.

Globetrotter

unholy to the holy said...

Give it a rest lah Rock !
A god by any other name !

Anonymous said...

Demi Negara should be made the reference point to all Malay muslims readers.

An astute analysis was given everytime he writes. Some of the racist non Malays do not even dare to comment there for the "in your face" bashing they received... hehehe

only in there they realise that the mindset which had been propagated by their racist leaders are laid bare for all to see...

kuang kuang kuang :)

ik said...

It's worrying if they are trying to lure the muslims to christianity.
That's why Muslims should go back to the teaching of tasawwuf, sufi -the spirituality. When the spiritual side of Islam is strong we would be stronger in facing whatever enemies that are attacking us. Islam without spirituality makes us 'dead men walking'. Some questions this spirituality side of islam as being ajaran sesat...tapi pegi consult bomoh, telek nasib boleh pulak. Ish gila.
Anyway, it's time our religious scholars, muftis go back to the the teachings of tasawwuf. To some muslims religious icons, don't just preach for popularity sake...nak jadi potential politicians la, celebrity ustaz/ustazah, tulis lirik lagu la. Ya Tuhan, ya rabbi, ya ALLAH...please protect us, love us and make us love one another!

Anonymous said...

Sounds like a prawn behind the stone stuff. Or could it be a tractor behind the hill?

A GOOD MAN DOES NOTHING.

Anonymous said...

why can't they understand that this has nothing to do with syed hamid. he may be wrong in many things but i'm 110% behind him on this. not because of him (this is his job, so he has to stand for it) or anyone who's in that position defending this issue. you guys please don't equate the malays in malaysia with the indonesians. if you cross the line, you'll find a wrath like you've never seen.

where la hadi awang and anwar ibrahim on this issue? this is a matter of religion, not politics.

iskandar

Anonymous said...

I wish to correct here..'Allah' is being use in Indonesian version of bible,so,if Indonesia,being largest muslim country in the world,what so the hack we are argue about???Pls lah...dont try to hero,Rocky.Are you try to create another hu ha here?

William Lim said...

Hi Rocky,

It is good to read of views from all points of view. Regardless of what some others have said, I am glad to read about all reactions & pieces written on this issue.

Personally, I feel that the action by the Herald seems like an act of pride. Oh yeah, you can say that "if we give in, means our rights will further erode, etc, etc" OK but does that weaken our own faiths any further? Why must the Herald take an action that will further erode national unity by taking this step?

OK put it in another perspective. I have read from BM versions of the mass proceedings when I was younger, & with both Tuhan & Allah in the texts, it was confusing since I always assumed the use of the word "Allah" referred to the Muslim God....

Words, & more words.

Put it this way again. Are the actions by the Herald unilateral? I may be wrong, but I have not heard this issue played up in Sarawak (Kuching, where I am from). Or is it just a West Malaysian thing, since I feel West Malaysian Christians are a little too "worldly" & do not concentrate much on teachings & faith?

By the way, I am a Catholic from Sarawak. Do my comments seem like a betrayal? Is this need to use a word so critical, that if the word cannot be used, that the bumis of Sabah & Sarawak will lose their faith?

Another point, are the actions of the Herald have hints of pride? Can they consider their actions first in light of the equation of the peoples of our country?

I don't think that a ban on using the word erodes our freedom to believe. Are not our rights preserved in the Constitution?

Thanks.

Keith said...

c'mon man. Ploy to evangelize, if all it takes to evangelize was one word, Christians would have evangelized the whole world by now.

This is the same as the rumour of holy water being circulated not too long ago. Why are Muslims so afraid of Christian evangelization if they're so confident in their own religion?

Get real man. The post not only shows ignorance, it shows an utter fear that Muslims in this country are so easily convertible. With faith as shaky as Uno Stacko on it's last block.

That beside the fact that Christian convert to Islam by the day , yet you guys don't mock that.

Not to mention the countless of Jakim body snatches that Muslims would never condemn. That is not a ploy by Muslims to claim for their own. That is OK, but for Christians to use the word Allah is not. Even though the word Allah was used by Sabahans and Sarawakians long before they were part of Malaysia.

Lame. It's unfortunate so many people think like you.

Fortunately, I know many Muslims (specifically Malays) who are way more forward thinking, open-minded and understand their faith better. They don't feel the need to limit the vocabulary of others based solely on their religion. May Allah save Malaysia from the likes of you.

Anonymous said...

Disgusting bigots.

Thanks for stirring up distrust amongst the multi-racial, multi-religion nation that is once called Malaysia. Now it is just called Boleh-bigot-land.

Thanks, Rocky, for stirring up shit and bringing out all the bigots and all the hypocrisy talk about Muhibbah, Perpaduan and all that shit.

Now we really know what the Malay Muslim stands for, as suggested by Demi Negara and anon that this should be the reference for all Malays.

petra

skilgannon1066 said...

Kijang Mas has unleashed a long diatribe (in excellent English, mind you, notwithstanding his claims over the sovereignity of Bahasa Melayu) over the use of the words "Allah", "Tuhan" and "God" to address the Almighty (or the High King or the Swift Sure Hand, as mentioned in Celtic romances).

It seems to me that there seems to be an unhealthy proprietary interest in claiming to know exclusively how the Almighty wishes to be addressed. In other words, mere mortals (which I suppose Kijang Mas and pak iskandar are) are claiming to know the mind and thoughts of the Almighty (the sacred texts of the Koran, Bible and Torah notwithstanding).

That, to me at least, is the height of impertinence (chutzpah, if you will) - that someone, on the basis of theology (Islamic, Christian or Jewish) claims to know what the Almighty wants mankind (and womankind) to do.

Apocalyptic warnings of days of wrath, thunder and strife to come if people take the name/s of the Almighty in vain are far removed from the spirit of brotherhood and love of neighbour and the need to do good that underpin Islam and Christianity.

Or are you saying that Huntington's "Clash of Civilisations" will take place here in Malaysia? That Malaysia will be the stage for a historic post-Crusades confrontation between two great monotheistic religions?

That seems to be an awfully big agenda to adopt. For mere mortals, it may seem to be infringing on divine Will.

Yasmin said...

many have their say but I say you are hypocrite ass hole

Musang Berjanggut said...

@ik

Ik. Remember the ex-mufti of Perlis? Remember what he said about the sufis? Remember about his comment about the yoga fatwa?

And you say, "....Anyway, it's time our religious scholars, muftis go back to the the teachings of tasawwuf. To some muslims religious icons, don't just preach for popularity sake..."

Sometimes we wander which "master" is foremost to some of them.

Izzshah said...

yalahhh... why not the bible just use tuhan... by the way the word 'Allah' is not from malay language but arabic...

Alliedmartster said...

Guys, lets just look straight at the matter at hand.,....
Government says no, Herald guys just want to challenge, period.

As far as the word 'Allah' is concerned, isn't it Arabic?

Anyways, who has the rights to what language is used where and when? Give that a thought....
What if Herald uses 'Dewa' instead depicting Hindu Gods? Does the government then say no it can't be used?

For crying out loud, its only a WORD!

That said, to preserve, acceptance, there must be a middle ground!

Alliedmartster said...

and IK.....

Its not that 'They are luring muslims away from Islam'.....
The malay print is meant for those in the remote parts of the country like Sabah and Sarawak.....FYI, Christians from those parts exclusively use Malay as the main language of praise.....

Garden said...

demi negara splendidly answers them, and put a foot down.

salam.

Garden said...

To Keith,

You never felt worried when a fellow Christian reverts to Islam? We worry because it is just common feelings thta goes with the sense of caring among the Muslim brotherhood which shows we care.

After all, it does not make sense at all, to have an Arabic word "Allah" in an all Malay language bible. Read William Lim's comment on Demi Negara, that is an honest Christian that has something to say about all this.

You really need to be consistent, if you wanna use Malay as the language for the bible, then please stick to the use of "Tuhan" because in Malay, Tuhan means God. If you wanna use the Arabic language, then please use Arabic in the whole text of the bible. So which one is it? Malay language? Arabic language? Or will it be "God" as in English? Or "Dios"? Please make up your mind la wei, don't be cacamarba like our education system (PPSMI) la wei people.

Hansac said...

Wait. The ban on Herald is over their use of the word 'ALLAH' in their publications.

Not over the use of the word 'ALLAH' in Bup Kudus (Iban Bible).

So let us get a few things straight.

The Iban Bible, the Iban Church, all use proceedings in Iban Language. So are all the other Sidang Injil Borneo churches. They conduct their Mass in their own languages: Iban, Melanau, Kadazan, etc.

It would sound weird to an Iban ear to hear Mass in Bahasa Malaysia in the rural areas of Sarawak.

So, yes to ALLAH in Bup Kudus, no to ALLAH in Herald publications.

I am a Muslim.

kiawin said...

Dear KijangMas,

Let me quote something you've said in your article,

"The type that either refuse or unable to string a simple Bahasa Malaysia sentence? The type that would only use the Malay language, pidgin style, to reprimand their maids and gardeners and to cuss the traffic cop on the street after dishing out RM50 in order to cheat the nation of RM300?"

My Malay might not be that good, though still conversational. I don't have a maid or gardener at home - but I always appreciate all cleaning aunties at my workplace.

Just one thing I wish you (KijangMas) would know - I'm one of those Christians who honestly fork out hard-earned money to pay all our summons (no matter it is from PDRM or even our own beloved Majlis Perbandaran) without any regrets.

Yes, KijangMas, you may know a few bad apples out there that shamelessly bribes every law enforcers they met. But I know a few (if not a lot - being unnecessary skeptic) good apples that holds strong principles in their life NOT because they are Christians and hence they must be holy - but because they are Christians and they respect and adhere the Law (and authority) as we are willing to - as the bible teaches us so.

The issue of uproar of the ban "Allah" among East Malaysians (and also West Malaysians) are clear.

My personal view on the above matter, it is fair for Muslim community to show their concern in the usage of the word "Allah". But pre-emptive the ban (by our beloved Ministry) without going through proper channel (by the Law, and hence the court) is just as improper as the bribery of law enforcer.

Unless, one deem bending the Law and perform a mockery on our nation's beloved Constitution for this reason is justified.

Though I, a Christian, being labelled as a Language retard, zealots and other cynical labels you (KijangMas) has smacked on my and my beloved friends' forehead - I've only one request for you (KijangMas).

I believe you have a better way to present your points. You might went through a rough day, you might need a good rest - but it does not mean you have a right in insulting us who are sincerely living our life as a loyal citizen of Malaysia - despite of our differences in our belief.

Yes, you are partially right about some of us who have lost our confidence in our judiciary system. However, I believe my fellow Malaysians who too have shown their similar distress on this issue through the "Walk of Justice" - where I strongly believe it is more than Christians who participated in that walk.

Yes, you may say the "language retard", "bribery", "judiciary", "bumiputra" and few more things you've mentioned are just a tip of an iceberg - you are raising an issue that supercedes all the aforementioned. Then may I request, that you may present your point straightforward?

I would appreciate if you can make your point without making any assumption and generalization.

Thanks.



kiawin
A Malaysian, who happens to be a Christian.

BrightEyes said...

Before reading his article, I predicted no mention will be made of the fact the majority of Malaysian Christians are actually Malay-using East Malaysian Bumiputera. Turns out I was right. That rubbishes the whole entire piece.

Like I said earlier, its amazing how little some people know about East Malaysia.

Roc, if this is supposedly the cream of the crop among your circle, I must say you guys have very low standards.



* * *

Left as a comment on DM...


Y'know, your long winded 'lintang-pukang' article forgets that around 60% of Malaysia's Christians are actually... dun! dun! dun!

Chinese? Nope
Indians? No
Malay-speaking, writing, and reading Bumiputras mostly from Sabah & Sarawak? Yep!

Source:
http://tinyurl.com/aex8bp
~General Report of the Population and Housing Census 2000. Putrajaya: Department of Statistics, Malaysia. 2005

This fatal flaw brings your whole argument crashing down, which you probably spent day n' night hammering out.


The East Malaysian Bumi Christians have been using Malay & the word 'Allah' for their worship & books, long before you were born, and longer before they joined Malaysia.

Thanks guys for demonstrating your ignorance. I recommend a "lawatan sambil belajar" to East Malaysia someday.

BrightEyes said...

Amazingly little mention was made about East Malaysia's Bumi christian community... who form a rather large demographic in that part...

The only message I got from reading Kijang's piece was this...

"This dude knows jack about East Malaysia"

What did they say about those who 'knows not, and knows not that he knows not'?

Ross said...

yes, you can change the word god in the bulletin to Allah. But also ensure that when you do your sermon, preaching or such, replace the pronunciation of Jesus Christ with Allah. replace the words god and jesus christ in bibles with the word Allah... berani?

kiawin said...

Dear Garden,

"You really need to be consistent, if you wanna use Malay as the language for the bible, then please stick to the use of "Tuhan" because in Malay, Tuhan means God. If you wanna use the Arabic language, then please use Arabic in the whole text of the bible. So which one is it? Malay language? Arabic language? Or will it be "God" as in English? Or "Dios"? Please make up your mind la wei, don't be cacamarba like our education system (PPSMI) la wei people."

Purely for academic reasoning, do you agree that once a foreign word is added into a language - that the word itself is part of that language?

For example, "Computer" in English is also known as "Komputer" in Bahasa Melayu. I would say that "Komputer" is orignated from English, but "Komputer" itself is still a Bahasa Melayu word.

Historically speaking, Bahasa Melayu has its roots and nature with massive infusion of Arabic, Persian and Hindi or Sanskrit vocabularies.

Of course, even English Language itself adapted many foreign vocabularies such as Norman French, Latin and even Greek.

We've been using the English word "me" as we converse daily in English. I'm quite sure no one would actually take the trouble to find out that the English word "me" actually is taken from the word "me" in Latin.

Being academically right, I would not claim I'm using a Latin in my daily conversation. Though I would admit that English word I used originated from Latin.

Coming back, I understand clearly that the word "Allah" in Bahasa Melayu is originated from Arabic Language.

However, I would have a bit of reservation in avoiding using the word "me" or "Allah" (in this case) based on your reasoning to Keith.

I understand the concern of Muslim Community of any usage of the word "Allah" in other religion/belief.

But being consistent, I would find it difficult to accept the rational of the banning of the word "Allah" because of not using Arabic word in Bahasa Melayu.

Side talk a bit, as mentioned in my previous comment to KijangMas, I also find it difficult to comprehend if we resort to bypass proper (legal) channel in the banning decision - in upholding our beloved Rukun Negara, especially on "Keluhuran Perlembagaan" - which (ironically ) suggested by William Lim in his last paragraph of sharing.


kiawin, again

kiawin said...

Dear Hansac,

"Wait. The ban on Herald is over their use of the word 'ALLAH' in their publications. Not over the use of the word 'ALLAH' in Bup Kudus (Iban Bible). So let us get a few things straight. The Iban Bible, the Iban Church, all use proceedings in Iban Language. So are all the other Sidang Injil Borneo churches. They conduct their Mass in their own languages: Iban, Melanau, Kadazan, etc. It would sound weird to an Iban ear to hear Mass in Bahasa Malaysia in the rural areas of Sarawak. So, yes to ALLAH in Bup Kudus, no to ALLAH in Herald publications. I am a Muslim."

From what I know of Sidang Injil Borneo (SIB),

SIB does not conduct mass service.

I've visited a SIB church Sunday Service which uses Bahasa Melayu as the medium of communication.

Is there any reason why I can't use Bahasa Melayu - my National Language, in my church?

Anonymous said...

I lived in Kuwait(a neighbouring country of Saudi) and worshipped with christians in a church (yes Kuwait allows churches in their country)and during that time one room in the church was occupied for worship by Arab christians. while we sang oor hymns ,we could hear them sing similar songs in the room in arabic.And the word allah was freely used among them without the muslims in that country getting offended. These Arab christians when socialising with us after church used to even say'inshallah'. I think the muslims of malaysia should look at the practise outside of this country before coming to any conclusion about the usage of the word allah.
Christians on the other hand must be reminded that we are told to submit to whatever authority is in charge of the country and also to turn the other cheek .

Ben

Anonymous said...

IS ALLAH OF THE MUSLIM/ISLAM RELIGION THE SAME AS THE GOD OF THE BIBLE ?

This critical question was twice asked of and well answered by our friends in ministry at The Berean Call in their newsletter.

We thought you would appreciate it.

Question: The word "Allah" as used in your September 1993 issue is not correct. The Hausa translation of the Bible in northern Nigeria uses Allah as a designation for the true God. Allah is therefore the same divine being in both the Islamic and Jewish faiths and the one who became man for the salvation of mankind.

Answer: The translators, by using a term familiar to the Muslims in northern Nigeria, no doubt thought they were being helpful. But by using Allah in the Hausa language, they have succeeded, instead, in creating confusion. Allah is no mere linguistic designation for God, as Dios in Spanish or Dieu in French. Allah is the name of the god of Islam. In fact, Allah was the name of the chief god among the numerous idols in the Kaaba in Mecca, which represented the deities of travelers passing through in the caravans. Allah was the god of the local Quraish, Muhammad's tribe, before Islam was invented. Muhammad smashed the idols but kept the black stone which is still kissed today by Muslims. He kept, too, the name Allah for the god of Islam (its sign was the crescent moon) in order to appeal to his own tribe.

Allah has definite characteristics: he is not a father, has no son, is not a triune being but a single (and thus incomplete) entity who destroys rather than saves sinners, has compassion on only the righteous, does not deal in grace but only rewards good deeds, has no way to redeem the lost sinners, etc. Allah is not the God of the Bible.

read full version here :
http://www.menorah.org/allahtrc.html

a muslim brother

zazaland said...

Kiawin, why don't you post your comments to KijangMas at his Deminegara blog instead of here. This is Rocky's blog. Takut ke?

Txs.

amal said...

ALLAH = GOD = TUHAN
GOD = ALLAH = TUHAN

It's a damn languange lah, rocky!
What's the issue here? Seriously.

Arabic is only for Arabs now?

Bibles have been using ALLAH for God knows how many years already! Thousands of years! So, what? Sheesh~

Anak said...

Rocky Bru,

I am a Catholic Bumiputera from Sarawak. We don't use BM for our mass services including in the most remote area. We use our own language. Nobody should talk about the usage of the word Allah in the Bup Kudus as the matter was solved few years back.
As for the Herald, stick to English because we really don't like to read our religious materials in BM. No point challenging the ban. let the bygone be bygone.
We can never be like Arab countries where Muslims, and Christians share God's name as Allah. Just forget about it.

Anonymous said...

Anonymous Anonymous said...

IS ALLAH OF THE MUSLIM/ISLAM RELIGION THE SAME AS THE GOD OF THE BIBLE ?

Petikan dari Tafsir Al Azhar, Allahyarham Prof Dr Hamka; Surat Al-Fatihah, ms 68….

…”Kita orang Islam jika menyebut Tuhan, yang kita maksud ialah ALLAH.

Zat Yang Berdiri SendiriNya, kepadaNya memohonkan segala sesuatu, tidak beranak dan tidak diperanakkan, dan tidak ada yang menandingi dia sesuatu juapun.

Tetapi kalau orang Kristen menyebut Tuhan, yang mereka maksud ialah Yesus Kristus. Kadang-kadang bercampur baur; sebab menurut ajaran yang mereka pegang, bahwa Tuhan itu adalah “Trinitas”, atau “Tri-tunggal”.

Yang tiga tetapi satu, yang satu tetapi tiga.

Dia yang tiga tetapi satu itu ialah Tuhan Bapa, Tuhan Putera (Isa Almasih) dan Rohul Kudus.

Dan selalu mereka mengatakan “Tuhan Yesus”.Sebab itu walaupun sama-sama memakai kata TUHAN, tidaklah sama arti dan pengertian yang dikandung….”

WIDOW

Anonymous said...

Since Christianity used the word Allah first, obviously the newcomers should move aside. Christians in Arab used this word to describe God even before there was such thing as Islam. - Anti-Fanatic

kiawin said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
kiawin said...

Opps.. I missed a sentence in the first paragraph. My apologies.

===========

Dear zazaland,

I'm a blog follower of Rocky, after reading his posting about anxiety in the usage of "Allah", I decided to reply here.

My sole intention is purely putting a clarification on the issues raised by KijangMas, and hope Rocky permits me to put forward my clarification to all Rocky's blog readers.


Thanks.

kiawin

Jonathan Teo said...

Allah has been used in East Malaysia since before I was born mate. No attempts have ever been made, as far as I know, to evangelise the Muslims i East Malaysia becuase of it. Forgive me for my naiveity if I'm wrong, which I doubt.

If the Muslims in East Malaysia don't make a fuss about it, why you?

I wish West Malaysian Malays would be less paranoid like you.

=Jonathan Teo=

=A proud Christian, a proud Sarawakian=

skilgannon1066 said...

I note that Kijang Mas has, up to now, apparently thought it fit not to reply to what I had posted.

Maybe he is reserving his eloquence and his barbed pen (or keyboard) for more worthy opponents. Or, maybe, just maybe, having indulged in a bout of posting diarrhoea, he has nothing further to add to the debate.

Or maybe he has decided that he, like all other mere fallible mortals, have no basis to claim that they know the Mind and the Thinking and Plans of The Almighty (as Christian Scripture says - "My Ways are above your ways, My Thoughts are above your thoughts").

It is at times like these that one appreciates the benefits of living in a country with a truly secular government, where the separation of church/mosque/temple/synagogue and state is strictly enforced. I am thinking, of course, of Turkey where, the antics of the Turkish Prime Minister notwithstanding, the Turkish Armed Forces and judiciary stand as vigilant guardians of a secular government.

Of course, Malaysia is, by proclamation, an Islamic country. Comparisons with the likes of Turkey would not be welcomed by the powers-that-be.

Anonymous said...

I have been following your blog for some time and have noted that you are becoming more and more bigoted. You claim to be an open minded blogger but you are becoming increasingly chauvinistic and racial. You have no more credibility as a blogger. You must be preparing to return to the NST.

I cannot understand the insecurities of the people who oppose the use of the word "Allah". Would the use of the word lead to widespread conversions into Christianity? Do you expect us to believe that Muslims are that naive and gullible? Did the La Salle Brothers who educated many generations of Malaysians convert many Muslims into Christianity? We would least have expected that "educated and well exposed" individuals like yourself would participate in the current politics of hate and division espoused by certain politicians who appear to be on the way out.

Jiwalara Kelanaputra said...

skilgannon1066 said...
'I note that Kijang Mas has, up to now, apparently thought it fit not to reply to what I had posted'.

If you want kijangmas to reply to you, why dont you copy and then paste your comment at his blog lah.

Like zaza said, you are scared to go there. No balls buddy, you got no balls.

The same for the rest here. Takut of the Golden Deer.

Oh of course, he will tear your argument to shreds!!!

Muahahaha

Garden said...

Kiawin, my friend.

You wanna reason by the way of the language. Here's what I can say from my knowledge.

Look at this: "In nomine Patris, et Filii, et Spiritus Sancti." (http://www.scribd.com/doc/93058/Latin-prayer)

You see my friend, the Christians pray in so many languages. Be it Latin, English, Indonesian, Zulu, Afrikaan...so many languages, and so the bible are published in the locals language of mother tongue. That is why, you do not see the word "Allah" in the bible which is used by those Christians praying in Latin. Why? Because like the above excerpt that I had listed, it is called "Patris". Now if you were to translate that into Indonesian, it'd be "Dengan nama Bapa, dan Anak, dan Rohul Kudus". Therefore, your bible had always been published in the language of the locals. The only bible has the word Allah would only be the Arab bible, since the origin of the word Allah is also Arabic.

Now, the Muslim scriptures however were given to us by God in Arabic. And it will stay in Arabic until the judgment day comes. You will never find a Quran in Latin or English or Indonesian, you can only find the TRANSLATION in English, Latin or Indonesian or Malay. The Muslims pray in Arabic, all over the world. You will never come across a Muslim who prays in English, or Latin or Indonesian. Because it has been ordained by God that prayers are in Arabic. That is why it may seem that as you say, we consider it as part of the Malay language, but still we are well aware that "Allah" actually originates from Arabic. We use "Allah", because our scriptures use the word Allah. It was revealed to us that way. It has been that way since then.

That was why my question, "Do you wanna publish a bible in Malay or Arabic? Please be consistent...". If you say publish in Malay, then by all means use the Malay term for God, which is "Tuhan". Be fair to the language. Why would you want to jumble up a bit of Arabic here and a bit of Malay there? That is why I ask of u, to be consistent. So please make up your mind. Be consistent.

Peace be to you brother.

zazaland said...

Kiawin,

Now that everybody in Rocky's blog knows about what you have written to KM, maybe it is a good idea that you post it at DN. I, for one, would like to know KM's response.

Be brave, Kiawin, be brave.

Txs and have a nice day.

- zaza

Garden said...

Kiawin my friend,

I would like to introduce you to the late brother Ahmed Deedat, he used to hold a debate on the topic, "Is the Bible God's - Debate with Christian scholar Dr. Anis Sorrosh". Dr. Anis Sorrosh is an Arab Christian, his origin is Palestine. There are about 29 videos on the YouTube. I think you should watch it and listen to the debate. It might enlighten you and other fellow Christians.

And for our fellow Muslims, this might also help you in the knowledge about the bible.

The link:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=52DZg1ucofM

Peace to you brother.

skilgannon1066 said...

Jiwalara Kelanaputra

Why should I post on Kijang Mas's blog? If he is man enough, he should be able to respond to my post on Pak Rocky's blog.

Of course, if he can't, or won't, then I can only surmise that he has nothing to say in rebuttal of what I had posted previously.

Which, incidentally, I note that you have carefully chosen not to rebut either.

What's the matter, bro? Are both of you the bashful shrinking-violet type that turn tail and slink back into their hideouts when called out to perform?

Or maybe you are both the type of verbal diarrhoea-spouting nincompoops (and I use the term advisedly, not loosely) who are tongue-tied when confronted with rebuttals of their views.

Garden said...

Do the Christians know the original language in which their Bible was written in? Do the Christians know the history of their Bible?

The original language from which your current Bible was taken from was originally found in Greek language manuscripts. That means it was all written in Greek. In Greek language, the term for "god" is theos, "The God" is "Hotheos". "Elohim" however is Hebrew. Why can't you just go back to what was written in your original Bible manuscripts? Use the term "Hotheos"?

The late brother Ahmed Deedat can explain to you in the following clips:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4vMgiKPVIAI

and

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DhMUTjRXVM8

Shall we just put this matter to rest? Did Jesus say you need to use "Allah" to worship him? And those that does not use "Allah" will be damned to hell? I think Jesus never said anything like that.

Peace be to all.

kiawin said...

Dear Garden,

Thank you for your insight.

As what I understand about the original text of the bible, it is written mainly in Hebrew (Old Testament), Greek (New Testament), and partially in Aramaic (Old Testament). From what I understand, the anticipated language used is owing to the historical background. New Testament was written in Greek owing to the ruling of Roman empire, Aramaic owing to the ruling of Babylon empire.

I surely agree on your last paragraph of saying that let's put this to a stop.

My intention here in Rocky's was never raising unnecessary sentiments among Malaysian community.

In fact, I'm here just to clarify on certain issues which I see it as untrue.

And yes, I wish that we can stop this topic and let the law takes it course (as I briefly mentioned in my "reply" to KijangMas).

For the very fact, I respect the decision of our Muslim community in raising their concerns on this issue (I mentioned that too in my "reply" to KijangMas).

Just one thing, inspite of all of our dissatisfaction, can we try to be objective in the discussion? I'm proud to have you Garden here being a good example to all of us.




Dear Zaza,

If you read between the lines of my previous reply to you, you would know my reply to KijangMas is purely a rhetoric in clarifying some generalization and blatant accusation he made on Malaysian Christians - as Rocky some how decided to let his reader read that blog post (which I already mentioned in my reply to you).

In fact, I did mentioned he can make his point, just minus off the assumption and generalization.

Frankly, why should we quarrel among ourselves? Apparently of your reply to me it seems you're being provocative. Is that necessary? (if you read my "reply" to KijangMas, that is what I'm trying to say!)

Yes, I'm being cynical in my "reply" to KijangMas, but you should learn to understand what is the meaning of objectivity.

Over Perak we're shouting let the Law takes its course. Bring it to court! Over here, we're shouting, is ok to ban the word without letting the Law takes its course.

How ironic.

Oops, I'm making an assumption as I take you highly regarded as a Rakyat and that you're supporting Pakatan Rakyat - in bringing the appointment of new MB issue into the court. My fault if you don't.

Let's put this to a stop. We have better things to do.


Thanks.


kiawin

Anonymous said...

to Anon at 2.37pm @ kuangkuangkuang

nola..some so called non malay racist posted a lot there la but demi negara will only publish those not very good post that he can attack to show the superiority of his cause.

i posted many things in Deminegara but only one were published. and one of his so called DN knights jumped at me with foul language melolong macam orang giler mengamuk masakan kijangmas diam jerr. adui, macam mana la berhujah dengan orang begitu.

kalau tengok Kijangmas pun bila dia bantai orang bahasanya memang berbentuk kesat dan menghina bagaikan dialah ya maha betul dan berkuasa. most of us tak sanggup nak pakai bahasa macam dia untuk memaki sorang manusia kita hanya kenal melalui screen pc kita. so macam mana nak berdebat dengan dia dan dahlah nampak sangat dia benci sungguh dengan kaum cina.

dahlah dia bukan mautautin kat malaysia. kat US katanyer dengan Humvee dan seronok senapang senapang dia. looks like he learnt alot from his white supremacy buddies.

memang sah dia amat berpengetahuan dan teror berbahasa tapi racist tetap racist, macam hitler la...

pening

ps. tentang isu agama ni i have no comment la..i bukan muslim mahupun christian. thanks rockybru for allowing to rant.

Anonymous said...

ha, I will test my thought, your post get me some good ideas, it's truly awesome, thanks.

- Thomas