Tuesday, October 28, 2008

For a change, the views of someone legally trained

In Is Rocky's Bru barking up the wrong tree?, Stephen Tan Ban Cheng came to the conclusion that "... perhaps blogger Rocky, being not legally trained, should be forgiven for his inability in appreciating legal principles and the real issues involved."

I would like you to read a posting by someone "legally-trained" on the issue. Blogging lawyer Nizam Bashir's posting Missing the Forest for the Trees? was put up on Saturday seems to be a response to Stephen's Tan's "tree" as well as to my original posting on Tun Salleh Abas' grouse here.

It has not been published on the Bar's website but I'm sure it will. Excerpts:

Having weighed the totality of the comments, the following must be emphasized. We can attempt to characterize the previous decision to waive Rule 60 as a bad precedent and say that it has no value for future applicants. But doing so, only diminishes us for it avoids the simple truth of this matter. Something unfair has occured.

In fact, this didn’t elude the scrutiny of one senior and respected member of the Bar. He was quick to make the searingly honest suggestion that:

“If the Bar Council erred in the first case then they must act consistently and revoke that decision. The Council should subject itself to the same standards that it expects of others.“

Nevertheless, I humbly beg to differ with the learned senior member’s views. I don’t believe Tun Salleh is looking for the Bar to strip Dato’ KC Vohrah of his consultant status. All he is looking for is some equality or failing that, the moral victory of an apology. Is either too much to ask?

Click h e r e to read Nizam's entire posting. [And the guy's not even on my blogroll!]

p.s. Edmund Bon has asked invited members of the Bar to give legal and constructive suggestions on the issue. What would you do if you are in the Bar Council now? Read his comment piece Difficult Issue, but do not confuse the arguments h e r e.

44 comments:

sama rata said...

“If the Bar Council erred in the first case then they must act consistently and revoke that decision. The Council should subject itself to the same standards that it expects of others.“


Yea, Bar Council demand Royal Commision of Inquiry on the VK Lingam on the appointment of judges, purportedly, the Government erred.


So, is it not right to demand a Royal Commission of Inquiry if the Bar has erred?


Where is Lim Kit Siang? Where is Anwar Ibrahim? Where is Karpal Singh? Where are all the candle/vigil nites organisers?

Anonymous said...

Bloggers are a band of whiners. Here's my piece of advise to Rocky and the band of whining bloggers who love to blog on trivia and politics:

The current political turmoil in and the turmoil in the financial market certainly raise anxiety. How we handle these changes is likely to determine the quality of life we lead and our emotional well being.

Two lessons from the men of wisdom:

(i) From PMBA

• Turn off the news – rely on trusted sources to stay informed and ignore the rest of the noise and gossips. Stay away from those who are likely to sensationalise news and information.

• Identify what you can and cannot control – focus on the things you can control and let go of the rest. You cannot control what happens in the US banking sector, but you can evaluate the necessity of the big purchase you are planning to make. (Also see item (ii) below)

• Do scenario planning – do a list of things which bothers you, then think of the worst case scenario: what will happen if everything goes wrong. Chances are you can make some contingency plans, a plan B possibly.

(ii) Covey’s Circle of Concern - Circle of Influence

In his The Seven Habits of Highly Effective People, Stephen Covey makes a distinction between proactive people and reactive people. Both will have the same concerns, but the proactive people will focus on what they can do, on what they can influence. On the hand, the reactive people will focus on things beyond their control.

Covey uses two circles to illustrate the difference between what concerns us and what we can influence. The first is our circle of concern.

[Insert circles here]

The second, smaller, circle is our circle of influence. It is narrower than the circle of concern, and many of our concerns fall outside our circle of influence.

If we focus our energy outside our circle of influence, we will be wasting our time and energy on matters over which we have no influence. It would be very tempting to focus our energy (particularly our mental energy in the form of worry, frustration, irritation and complaining) on those things in life that most concern us. But since we have no influence over them, that energy is lost forever and cannot be used to affect areas of concern over which we do have influence.

However, if we focus our energy on concerns that are within our circle of influence, we will increase our capacity to influence: the more influence we effectively exercise, the more influence we will have. Knowing how far our circle of influence extends is an important aspect of personal effectiveness.

Peen Keening

Anonymous said...

With all due respects, two wrongs do not make a right. If the Bar Council had erred in the earlier instance, I agree that an apology to Tun Salleh is in order. I am sure the Tun, in his wisdom, would not want to be given special dispensation and expect that the Bar Council knowingly break its own rules to accomodate him and to atone for their mistake.

And what happens if the next time another such case arise? Another double standard adjustment?

non legal

coin with 2 faces said...

Bro,

they'll find 1001 reasons to show that they are right on the names of justice and truth.

Take for example they want an equal share of cake when comes to economy and power.

But when come to education, they want their own system.

There are ample opportunity for them to grab ie. army, police and other uniform units, but their leaders never ever mention why there is lack of them to fill up the post. The leaders only mention about fair share of economy and their own education system

I rest my case.

Astronout said...

Pakatan Rakyat dan Bar Council BODOH!

Anonymous said...

The issue with legal opinions is that they are all opinions. Who has the right interpretation?
The body charge with interpreting laws is the judiciary. I supposed if someone wants to get a definite interpretation once and for all and get away from "opinions", take this to the court and let it decide.
Should that take place, one of 3 scenarios can happen:
1. Judge rule for Tun and direct Bar Council to give approval.
2. Judge rule for Bar Council and agree with the Bar Council that Datuk Vohrah should not be stripped of his status.
3. Judge rule for Bar Council and directs that Datuk Vohrah (and all others similarly approved) be also stripped of his status.

I supposed no one wants to take this to court as one would not know how the court will interprete the rules and Datuk Vohrah could suddenly become a victim of circumstances.

Cheers.
JJ

amir said...

How now, brown cow?

Anonymous said...

Why has the application of this highly respected figure within the judiciary fraternity being rejected? Is it due to his qualification? His current position? or is it because of his racial background?

We request a fair answer Puan Peguam, not an excuse or a double standard ruling. Don't let the shame be spilled throughout the legal fraternity.

Zaib

Anonymous said...

Rocky,
I bet TDM can summarize the whole issue, that everyone can comprehend, in 1 page. Lawyers are confused and lost in their own writing!

HJG

Damansara said...

Looks like it sound similar to most of the fairly sounded comments we seen here, except for the 'intellectual jargons'

Anonymous said...

Bro,

To the eyes of BC and many non Malays, Malays are always less superior. This is why I said over my previous posting about "systematic discrimination". Their fellas are not even in Fed government yet and they can tactically manipulate things to their favor. I dread to imagine if PR finally rule.

blues

Nasionalis said...

A typical lawyer response ...

" ...perhaps blogger Rocky, being not legally trained, should be forgiven for his inability in appreciating legal principles and the real issues involved."

Why then are lawyers tying to be wise guys everywhere and in every other discipline and profession when they know nuts abt anything but and only law.

They do not deserve to be anything more than overly paid spokesman and petition writers typing under a tree in the days of fore.

Other than law, lawyers do not have the aptitude to do anything with science and technology. Generally, they are very poor in mathematics and science and come from the arts stream.

Jangan act.

Over rated lawyers. Can't you guys see you guys are being hounded by only one blogger. And the whole Bar Council dah mabuk macam orang gila!

These committee of racist is protecting their racial monopoly of the Bar Council.

Anonymous said...

Ha Ha Ha Rocky Oh Rocky! Either you have been tricked or you are working together with Dr Yaacob, Tunku Sofiah and their son Megat.

Nizam Bashir is a veri young lawyer from Melaka and having rewarded by this family to be a war crimes lawyer, he will definitely sing to their tune. Dr Yaacob hates Bar Council. He screwed up the Bar Elections as a scrutineer...and so Nizam's piece probably written with the input from this family. One should wonder why is the great Tun keeping so quiet????

Oh the other War Crimes Lawyers are Mathias Chang, Jacqueline Chang, Megat Shaharuddin Merican (Dr Yaacob's son), Elaine Zarina Zainur, Avtaran Singh and Jamal Ridzuwan. The War Crimes Commission helmed by Tun M also also comprises of Dr Yaacob and Tunku Sofiah and his other loyalists!!!

kluangman said...

Baru barua tu ingat, orang yang tak ada sekeping sijil undang undang tidak layak bercakap pasal undang undang.

Tetapi mereka jugalah yang tak punya sijil ugama, tak ada sjil babi, tak ada sijil itu dan ini tetapi mahu mencampuri dan bercakap benda dan perkara yang bukan dalam bidang mereka.

Inilah sikap double standard dan hipokrik yang ada pada puak ini.

Anonymous said...

Sama Rata,

We should not waste public funds on this matter.

Let the lawyers settle sama sendiri

Tak bolehlah samakan isu nak jadi consultant sama dengan soal integriti kehakiman.

Soal kehakiman soal integriti negara juga.

Anonymous said...

We must promote this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y0fUuOtyaVo

Tak Puas

Anonymous said...

Registration ( Restricted to Malaysian Bar members Only.)- from the BC website = Justice, my foot!

Yeah! sama rata... way to go man! You see the barstards couldn't care two hoots about your opinion or mine. they will trotter out their stock mantra and proclaim high falutin style that like Bro. Rocky : "we are not attuned to the legalities of the issue as we are not legally trained" or some rubbish to that effect.

The Bar is actually a closed pimp and whore sendirian berhad. You see, they are so used to pimping and whoring the truth they cannot differentiate between justice and injustice anymore. Push comes to shove, they become mechanical toys, trotting out their damn rules and other legalese and be damned with the ethics and morality of it all. These tin can Napoleons have no more grey matter between the ears then the scum who trawl Chow Kit (at least the Chowkittian may not have much of a choice).

Come to think about it, these well coutered and well coiffured and well "jubahed" dimwits cruising around in their Beemers and Mercs like sharks on the lookout for prey are only fit to dine with the numbskulls you mentioned Sama rata. After all, arent those numbskulls cut from the same cloth..the "Royal Tailors of Equivocations and Lies".

And you know why the barstards are working up a lather with their intellectual masturbation about the constitution and the various articles? Because they need the system to remain as it is..nanti mana mau cari makan mah? semua sudah syariah law..bah

Revert

Layman said...

If your point of argument "When KC Vohrah is given consultant status why can't Tun Salleh be accorded the same status" I must say you are dumbos and arguing like school kids.

This Bar Council leadership is not responsible for giving Dato KC Vohrah the consultant status. That's it and they are not obligated to give the same status to Tun Salleh.

The problem is you guys are looking at it from a racist viewpoint! That's the fact!

Anonymous said...

Some Bar Council EXCOs think they are Legal Ayatollahs. That's why to err, to apologise and to admit mistake are not in their vocabulary.

-Abu Hassan Gedebe

monsterball said...

Don't talk about laws in Malaysia....when judges can be bought..and so many cases innocent ones...loose out for no reasons...partly die to hiring a lousy lawyer.
It is sickening to talk logics..in a country...filled with corruptions.
How to talk what is right or wrong in laws...when some lawyers can be bought..so easily.
We said Police Dept...is corrupted...yet not one finds it that some of our lawyers...have.. not much to be desired...and may have influential voices .in the .. Bar Council.
I am sure...many who have experiences ..hiring a lawyer..suffered in silence...and pay huge legal fees..with no results..will tell you...how some of these legal minds can twist and turn..with no guilty conscience..except...what benefit them most... matters most.
So..the bottom line...are we sure..all lawyers have no politics agendas .. in their minds..more than hungry for justice?

Anonymous said...

peen keening

covey is so outdated man. Wake up, its 2008. Its now rockys circle of influence and the circle is getting bigger by the day

mattau

Borneonization said...

Dear Rocky and all bloggers who love politics and racial issues,

Is the personal issue of Tun Salleh Abas with the Bar Council more important than the RM5 billion of EPF contributors' money being wasted on bailouts of selected companies?

Can the mighty bloggers and smart racists organize vigil nites at EPF and MOF offices, please? Please help save my meager savings and help EPF invest wisely to improve dividends.

Please save us from more of UMNO's abuse of power and misallocation of our public money. Why wasn't the bailout via Valuecap not debated for approval? SOS SOS SOS.

Borneonization

Anonymous said...

Edmund Bon asked for comments: My comment is the Bar Council should suck up to Badawi and get more free dinners in five stars hotel and sing praises. This is what they are good for.

I was surprised that professional body like Bar Council can be bought over with a dinner. Tak malukah! Where is your principles and credibility?

81,000 Ringgit Woman

Anonymous said...

Interesting comment here..would like to share with all of you..quoted from a Mohd Radzian taken from nizambashir.com [articlehttp://nizambashir.com/?p=365]

Salam Nizam,

" Thanks for the explanation or else Bar Council will take me for a ride with their explanation.

It hinted that as long as certain quarters have authority on certain things, their decision will be biased if it goes unwatched.

BC with their president`s approval to (1)practice “forum” on Islam and other religion and (2) despite of using Tun Salleh Abbas to point error of Dr. M while denying Tun Salleh Abbas his legitimate consultancy license after taking into account the precedent of Dato KC Vohrah, had pointed to me a series of clever usage of situations in projecting and preserving positive “image of some party” and projecting negative “image of some party” and this parties seem to be correlated with race.

Based on this situations, I feel and think that the Malay is treated badly either in the case of forum in religion or Tun Salleh Abbas`s rejection and the act of tarnishing the image of Dr. Mahathir.

And the non-Malay, Dato Vohrah was given a honey coated treatment.

Can they be less biased ? Syukor, the political power is still with the Malay. Imagine, what it will be if the political power is not with the Malay ? "

Mohd Khairul Anwar said...

coin with 2 faces said...

Bro,

they'll find 1001 reasons to show that they are right on the names of justice and truth.

Take for example they want an equal share of cake when comes to economy and power.

But when come to education, they want their own system.

There are ample opportunity for them to grab ie. army, police and other uniform units, but their leaders never ever mention why there is lack of them to fill up the post. The leaders only mention about fair share of economy and their own education system

I rest my case.
------------------------------------

Should l said more? Imagine the likes of BC become our Ministers, CJ, PM, EXCOs etc?

Then, we'll know their truest color behind their robe. AMBIGuous?
Karl

The Malayan Times said...

Invitation

Check out the latest news in The Malayan Times at http://themalayantimes.blogspot.com

Kelvin said...

Rocky,

Nice reading..

With respect to these arguments, I am sad to note the standard of comments in this blog.

Yes.. Tun deserves an apology. But one should talk nicely to address these issues. It seems like people here doesnt think critically and logically when they comment. Name callings and unlogical opinions like 'pakatan rakyat and bar council bodoh' really makes me sad.

What has pakatan got to do with these? Tun, KC Vohrah are members of the Bar.. and it is an internal matter of the Bar. Why would Pakatan get involve in these? The Bar has its own legal provisions and AGMs..and the members will deal with the Bar Council themselves. What would happen should Pakatan intervenes in the IEM, MMA and so on..

I do commend you for first highlighting this issue as this provides info to members of the Bar who otherwise would not have known these. But your readers' comments really downgrade the quality of your posting.

I sincerely hope that you will continue write well. But pls write an entry about the etiqutte of commenting. Really sad. You have a nice article tainted with kindergarden standard of comments.

Pls adress the issue of logical and critical analysis and fruitful comments..rather that 'where is anwar ibrahim?' kind of comments.. It doesnt help anyone.

Kelvin

Anonymous said...

It's about time this council of "Learned Friends" be seen for what they are - a closet political party.

Peen Keening,

Why do people like to learn "business management" from people who haven't run even a teh tarik stall in their life?.
McNamara famously used business school principles during the Vietnam war and look where they ended up.

Re-Engineer

jonathan said...

bro,

I read Edmund Bond article in bar council website...as I said before this lowyar never want to lose. They will say that either non-lawyer is illiterate or dumbo. Same as you la bro, even though your experience journalist n you r level is higher want become the blogger instead for those dumbo lowyar bloggers.

Anyhow bro rock, I think is about a time we stop Bullshit Council becoz there is a lot of issue happen for the last few days especially when the one of the higher MCA personal want to the 30% Bumiputera equity of public list company should abolished.

I think is abt a time you point the issue so that we can bang greater than this Bullshit Counsil who always talk kok.

Adios...

Anonymous said...

Whether legally trained or otherwise, it is still easy to see blind justice.

Therefore I repeat my definition of democracy.....

"Do whatever you wish, as long as it does not offend others."

The Bar Council is operating like a legal mafia and can legimitise anything deemed fit.

The Salleh Abas poser is a simple illustration of how a man is made use of for political gain and , thank you, you are not needed anymore.

Am I offending anyone? Or is it my right of speech?

A GOOD MAN DOES NOTHING.

Anonymous said...

Dear layman,

To me, the Council, as a whole, should be responsible. We cannot simply say "it's the fault of the past management". If we subscribe to this ideology, then we can simply do a 'hit-and-run' always; transfer the officer making the stupid decision to another department: same salary, benefits and everything. And when someone raises the issue (concerning the stupid decision made) we can always say; "we didn't make the decision. Someone else did"

So how?

Can we all know YOUR race then, layman? So that we know that YOU'RE not being racist (for saying the people are taking this rather open issue of injustice from a racist viewpoint).

-Jibam

monsterball said...

Now...go and read Tengku Ahmad Rithauruddeen's remark..saying UMNO is corrupted to the core...for past 20 years or more and difficult to change them.
And if you take Melaka CM.. Rastum's remark..'UMNO will rule forever"...plus Mahathir's remark.."Money is power".....any fool will understand...UMNO intends to use money to buy people.
So we keep saying Police force is corrupted.
What about... so call Judicial Dept. Are all of them saints?
We know..what.. quite a lot of lawyers are capable of.....don't we?

WAK SAPU said...

Nak lihat transkrip wawancara Dato Sri Najib dengan BLOOMBERG TV pada 24 Oktober 2008? Sila layari http://waksapu.blogspot.com/

Zealot said...

Bro,

bar council needs legal counselling.

lalat said...

BRO,

Apasal gambar lu tengah minum teh tarik dengan KJ keluar kat mykmu.

Anonymous said...

Could it be that the Bar Council has chosen not to revoke K.C. Vohrah's consultant status to avoid embarrasing him for a fault that was not his? The fault was of the previous Council who misunderstood the rules.In not give Tun Salleh the Consultant status the BC is merely following the rules. And if any of you self-proclaimed so-called fighters of justice/truth know any shit you will know that Tun Salleh will not/ wants not any favours nor gives any favours.....he was fired from teh No. 1 judicial post precisely becasue of that. Do you think he want the BC to do him a "favour" and confer him the Consultant status even when it is wrong/illegal to do so. Grow up !!! stop arguing for the sake of arguing. And for God's sake stop making everything a religious issue. How moronic are you guys!!! my 10 year old niece will tell you "rules are to be obeyed" (((as in the Professional Practice Rules))) and "you can't punish someone for a wrong he did not do" (((as in Datuk Vohrah)))).
A legally trained person.

Anonymous said...

Anonymous 2.25pm

You know something dick head:

The Lingam shenanigans happened during someone else's watch. So going by the twisted logic emanating from your esteemed shit of a legal mind:

No needlah for that damn commission and all the attendant shadow play cos it happened eons ago.

Wanna stretch your piece of shit to its stretchable limit:

no needlah for all the showboating to restitute Tun Salleh cos it happened under someone else's watch!

Wanna stretch some more, cannotlah man cos that will defy the laws of physics! So next time your vile self comes up with some solid fecal matter, constipate on it. If tak boleh tahan, release it in the privacy of your "soul's kitchen", add some sauce and chew on it. It will give your mind some sorely needed fertiliser.

And remember,Bro Rocky never mentioned about punishing Vohrah porah until your overwrought and sick legal mind decided to give the issue a new twist. Go out and get a life man and stop wallowing in your legal shithole with the rest of your ilk. It will do you wonders.

Revert

aiyomanaboleh said...

By the look of things, I think Malaysia is in for a bumpy racial ride ahead.

Putting things in its perspective, there was apparently a situation that the Bar could not reconcile. That's it. Some has asked for the consultant's licence withdrawn and there are others that pointed out that by approving the Tun's application, the bar is getting itself suck into a deeper mess.

How can we help? By insinuating racial bias, as some has done?

And dear rocky,
As this is your blog, what is your view of the matter as of now after so many have voiced their opinions.
Did the Bar acted racially in declining the Tun and 5 others application? It's just a simple yes or no.

Penangkia said...

To aiyomanaboleh,

The answer is YES.
Sim ply put-
The Bar Council is an Islamic/malay hate Council.

Anonymous said...

Aiyomnaboleh,

In my opinion, this was never a matter about race or religion.

A lot of people in posting their comments are not even focusing on the issues but instead are suggesting that yes, this is about race, about religion and some (probably lawyers) are trying to divert the attention altogether like how Tun Salleh has not endeared himself to the Bar Council. Is that last bit relevant also?

It may be that Tun Salleh is Malay and that Datuk KC Vohrah is Indian but the previous Bar Councl did also gave Dato’ Haji Abu Mansor Bin Ali a consultant status as pointed out by Edmund Bon Tai Soon at:

http://www.malaysianbar.org.my/bar_news/berita_badan_peguam/is_rocky_s_bru_barking_up_the_wrong_tree_.html



Such postings are sadly the bulk of people's writing these days when they comment and I don't think this is only peculiar to Rocky.

I believe even the Bar Council has within their member's postings some racist and derogatory remarks made against Islam and Malays but that should not be a reflection of all members of the Bar.

I think the issues and questions that are relevant are:

1. Did the previous Bar Council really made a mistake in giving Datuk KC Vohrah and Dato’ Haji Abu Mansor Bin Ali consultant status?

2. Why has not the previous Bar Council been approached on the matter? Perhaps then we all can understand why they gave consultants status to the two even though according to Edmund Bon Tai Soon, they both did not qualify?

3. Why according to Tun Salleh has it taken the Bar Council over 2 years to give a "clearer picture" on why he cannot be a consultant? Please go to Rocky's latest posting on this point:

http://rockybru.com.my/2008/10/salleh-abas-rests-his-case.html#links

So what do you think Aiyomnaboleh?

Frodo

Anonymous said...

When I said: Such postings are sadly the bulk of people's writing these days when they comment and I don't think this is only peculiar to Rocky.

What I actually meant to say was:

Such postings are sadly the bulk of people's writing these days when they comment and I don't think this is only peculiar to those who post comments to Rocky's Bru blog.

Frodo

monsterball said...

And a Chief Justice must ALWAYS be a Malays....says it all.
If that's not the first sign....race and politics are active in judicial dept......police force and universities chancellors.....then it must be...other races are simply...not qualified...Malaysians.

aiyomanaboleh said...

Dear Frodo,

The way I see it, there are 2 ways to approach the situation.

1. We move on.

2. Get to the bottom of the whole thing. I guess Edmund can help here as he was at the meeting at that time. What were the arguments for and arguments against. The 2 years' wait was probably the time needed for the bar to reconcile the matter. It finally came out with a "clearer picture" but whether the picture now is any clearer or not, some are still debating.

Through hindsight, maybe, that section should not have been there in the first place.

I don't believe the majority of Malaysians are racial but like what they say, "In war, it brings out the worst in a person"

Anonymous said...

Dear aiyomanaboleh,

Your reply at 4:46pm deserves sincere thanks from me simply as it deals with the issues at hand and not wander off.

Frodo