Saturday, August 04, 2007

Not Secular, Not Theocratic, Not Clear



Illustration entitled Confused State by Tony Yew
Updates: Associated Press: Apparent Bid to make amends

Original Posting:
So are we or are we not an Islamic state, Mr Prime Minister?
Read this Bernama's story Malaysia not a Secular or Theocratic state very carefully (the BM version here). Abdullah Ahmad, our PM, said:
"We are not a secular state. We are also not a theocratic state like Iran and Pakistan which PAS wants us to be, but we are a government that is based on parliamentary democracy."
The PM did not say that Malaysia is an Islamic state. He did not say that Malaysia is not an Islamic state.
He also did not allude at all to the Deputy Prime Minister's statement that Malaysia is an Islamic state and not a secular state.
Remember, only these two are allowed to issue statements on the matter, according to a directive by the Internal Security Ministry to the media (after Najib had made the remarks).

I am a little confused here. Confused by the PM and DPM's conflicting statements. What do you understand from the PM's statement? Is he trying to say that we are NOT an Islamic state or is he saying that we are an Islamic state but not like Iran or Pakistan? Or is the statement aimed at Pas and Najib, and has nothing to do with whether this is or isn't an Islamic state?

41 comments:

bayi said...

Major case of flip-flop!

Anonymous said...

Huh...what? I'm somewhat confused here too. Initially I thought is was about the theoro-what state of Malaysia...till I come to the last sentence. Then, I figured I read it wrong. Guess I was wrong. Its all about PM vs DPM; a remake of the infamous 1997 blockbuster.

Er...bro, don't tell me I'm wrong there. My mind's too small for all these :) - Amir

Ben said...

If only the directive was complied by all at UMNO then Malaysia may be a lot more peaceful and possibly harmonious.

Read what this "katak dibawah tempurung" wrote: http://malaysia-today.net/blog2006/holds.php?itemid=6931
When will they learn that not only Malays are Malaysians and PM learn that their grass roots and indeed their leadership needs the admonishing of "freedom with responsibility" more than the fellowship of bloggers.

Its like the crab teaching others how to walk straight when they themselves cannot. Please don't waste taxpayers money by making police reports about these issues anymore. If you want to act, look at your own house first, PM, then look at others.

Why look for the dust in your brothers eye when you miss the plank in yours?

Wattahack? said...

"we are a government that is based on parliamentary democracy"

This is a clear statement that Malaysia is a democratic country based on a secular ideology. The parliament system is western and brought over from Britain and is embedded to Malaya.

If we are a full Islamic country then we would be governed by Ayahtollah and laws of Shariah not secular courts or parliament. One is either secular or not there's no inbetween. 50yrs on and we are more confused than ever!

limbonation said...

So our constitution will now have the following new additional clause then:

*
The Federation of Malaysia shall now be known as a, not quite secular and not quite theocratic but quite islamic and yet not quite democratic with a monkey & thetrical parliamentary system, state.
*

So AG Tan Sri Abdul Gani Patail you can now go ahead and draft up the new amendment to our new constitution, your master has spoken.

Kean-Jin Lim said...

Pukul pihak sini 50 kali, pukul pihak sana 50 kali.

Mr Bojangles said...

Actually I don't know why we spend so much time analysing statements made by our glorious leaders. Usually they don't know or even remember what they say from one day to another, from one morning to the same evening.
And then they sit back and laugh at the deluge that their inane comments brings forth.Its not that they did some serious research or thinking when they come up with these gems.Just open mouth for sake of opening mouth.
...And I'm reminded of a famous saying "if you stop every time a dog barks, your road will never end".

Ibu Najib said...

OK good! Now he got to punish or warn Najib for saying something that is sensitive and making the Kandazans, Indians, Ibans, Chinese, Eurasian in the country angry. How the countries can have such a leader as our number two in government? It other country such as Japan such minister will have to make an early exist from active politics. So everyone must take note that this Najib is dangerous and of no good to the country.

the gypsy said...

bro,
malaysians must know by now that they cannot believe statements by politicians.
the PM or DPM are making political statements.
Go back to your history lessons. The PM said Malaysia blah blah ...based on parliamentary democracy.
that is the only part that is based on fact and one that you and I and all of Malaysia know.
A schoolboy/girl can tell you that.
the tricky part is trying to convince the hard core Muslim voters about the ISlamic part and the secular voters, the secular part.
Don't let these leaders confuse you, people.
They obviously think Malaysians are dumb.
And don't be worried.
Just look around and fall back on what is there in the law and constitution for us.
Unless, Parliament declares that we are an ISLAMIC STATE, then for now we ARE NOT.

old female fart said...

Do labels matter? Or titles?

I suppose they do, as a matter of convenience and great socio-political/economic expediency!

As do surveys and statistics and figures and ranking and rating! But the DPM made a prophetic, albeit casual remark at the Women's Summit recently - that what matters especially to women is their own figure! Try to figure that one out Rocky!

To me what is important are the principles and ideals that are underscored in the country's constitution not the labels for which the country is known. In this case Islam Hadhari on top of ISLAM seems redundant, confusing even especially when ZAM tried to explain it on national TV.

Islamic concepts must be explicated by religious experts and scholars, well versed in the religion and the language in which the original tenets are expressed as well as the socio-cultural milieu of their development.

So it's not for you and me Rocky to try and decipher what's secular and what's religious in any society except if we can claim expertise!

I'm happy to note that the Federal Constitution is based on sound principles (secular/religious; Eastern/Western; colonial/native ethnic etc etc) with the objective of governing and overseeing a fair, just, equal and equitable society within the limits of a Malaysian way of life!

Of course, within the bounds of the HEAVENLY POWER AND HIS PURVIEW fairness, justice, equality and equity are immeasurable in human figures and statistics or in human explication!

Anonymous said...

Looks like the PM has lost control of his government.

Different ministers say contradicting things.

it is a free for all government.

Even the little emperors, AG, ACA and IGP look like have their own versions of things. It is free for all.

Anonymous said...

To: All Responsible Rational Citizens Who Are Eligible To Vote
(1)Equal Opportunities in Land of Plenty for All Malaysians? (2)Target:All Malaysians Who Care , Irrespective of Race , Gender , Religion , Culture or Origin? Created by:Malaysia Baru - Malaysia Kini - Malaysia Today -http://www.thepetitionsite.com/petition/983608455 * DENY BN 2/3 Majority for a Strong, Meaningful & Upright Opposition! GOD Bless DAP , Keadilan , Pas & Barisan Alternatif! VOTE BN Out of the Government! Vote for Truth , Justice & Peace! Don’t Mortgage Your Children’s Future & Their Next Generations! To ALL the Freedom Fighters & Saviors of Malaysia , I Salute You for Saving Malaysia from Corruption & Oppression! * Keep up the Good Fight Brother DSAI , RPK , RN , LKS , JO , LGE , TP , & All The Freedom Fighters & Saviours of Malaysia! *

Sincerely,

The Undersigned
Website - http://www.petitiononline.com/MYBaru/petition.html

Anonymous said...

a case of trying to appease everyone? including najib? (since he's not denying nor agreeing to najib's statement)

caravanserai said...

To say or not to say
How to say to make it sounds good?
Take it and concur with his deputy?
When he opens his mouth
Something different he said

Is Malaysia a secular or Islamic state?
A new spin he spins
Totally confusing in our minds
He thought he made it right

Follow the Federal Constitution
Nobody could interpret otherwise
As Tunku said
“Honesty a god’s breed
It isn’t easy to be one”

Do AAB want to play top and spin?
He has to learn it from the villagers
Before he wants to spin his tales
I feel I am at loss to say

But then I don’t expect any
From a PM who said “I don’t know”
It shouldn’t be coming from his mouth
A statement damaging to his style
Open door policy he is not
Autocratic leader he fails
Parliamentary leader he fools me
So I guess he doesn’t know what he says

In 50 years of nationhood
We have spin doctors advising goblok statements
This is what we got
The inept leaders running the country
Because we are the ones
Believing in fairy tales of years ago

Bangsa Msia said...

Neither secular nor theocratic. Neither heaven nor of earth.

Then it must be hell that we are in.

What do you think?

pasir salak said...

Saudara Rocky,

Tadi pagi (Ahad), saya berpeluang mendengar ketua menteri P.Pinang, Koh Tsu Koon berucap di pembukaan persidangan delegate Gerakan di Ipoh.

Nampaknya beliau bersungguh-sungguh mahu menyakinkan ahli-ahli partinya bahawa negara ini bukan sekular dan juga bukan teokratik.

Logiknya agak kabur dan nampak pun banyak ahli Gerakan seakan-akan terpinga-pinga dengan apa yang cuba diperkatakan oleh pemangku presiden mereka yang cuba menjelaskan kenyataan Abdullah Ahmad Badawi.

Yang paling menariknya ialah masa sidang akhbar. Ada pemberita bertanya 'adakah patut ahli-ahli politik yang giat menginterpretasi perlembagaan, walhal itu adalah dalam bidangkuasa kehakiman?'

Jawabnya itupun cara berpolitik, lalu pemberita itu pun tanya sama ada Najib Razak empunya kenyataan bahawa 'malaysia is an islamic country' itu wajar?

Tak mahu dijawabnya. Malah Koh terus menuduh pihak media pandai 'corner' ahli politik dan tanya benda-benda seperti isu negara Islam.

Tetapi, pemberita itu, kalau tak salah saya, daripada akhbar bahasa Inggeris, bertanya Koh mengapa nak salahkan pembangkang apabila ketegangan itu nampaknya sekarang datang daripada ketidaksamaan pendapat dalam BN itu sendiri? Mahathir kata Islamic country, Najib kata Islamic state, Abdullah kata lain benda pula.

Koh yang kelihatan semakin tension lalu berkata kepada pemberita itu kalau nak berdebat buat lepas PC. Ada pula saya terdengar pemberita itu berkata 'boleh, dulu pun saya pernah berdebat dengan keng yaik lepas PC pasal negara Islam yang dibuat oleh Mahathir'.

Apa jadi lepas itu tak tahulah tapi pemberita itu keluar 15 minit lebih lambat daripada pemberita lain.

Yang saya setuju dengan salah satu kenyataan dalam soalan pemberita tersebut ialah 'mengapa mata rakyat mahu dikaburi dan dibingungkan oleh pemimpin BN apabila kuasa menginterpretasi perlembagaan adalah dalam tangan kehakiman?'

Bagus soalan itu. Jadi rasanya kita jangan terbawa-bawa dengan kenyataan pemimpin BN macam ini. Kalau dah mahkamah agong buat keputusan dalam tahun 1988 apasal pula sekarang nak politikkan isu ini.

sekian dulu saudara rocky.

ARI said...

Tak paham konsep betul lah Pak Lah ni. Apa kena mengena Parliamentary Democracy with what type of Islamic State we are?

Not mentioning that we are an Islamic State?

Bukan dalam constitution kata "Islam is the religion of the Federation" ke?

And are we not in the OIC?

Urrgh!! Penat.

MarinaM said...

Life in this beloved country of ours gets ever more surreal. Why compare with Iran and Pakistan as theocracies and therefore different from us? They both have elections and parliaments. Pakistan has more women parliamentarians as a proportion of MPs than we do. Public pressure can undo presidential acts.Iranians can directly vote for their President.

Methinks when people don't do enough research, they should really not say anything.

pasir salak said...

saudara rocky,

tadi saya menulis: Jawabnya itupun cara berpolitik, lalu pemberita itu pun tanya sama ada Najib Razak empunya kenyataan bahawa 'malaysia is an islamic country' itu wajar?

silap saya. pemberita itu bertanya kalau Najib Razak empunya kenyataan bahawa 'malaysia is an islamic state' itu wajar?

sekian, saudara.

Anonymous said...

Is this a case of the DPM trying to outdo the leaders of UNMO youth to gain Malay ground support by making outrageous pronouncements. Who do you believe now?

idris said...

Politic is the art of possible.
what is important is you make promises so that people vote you. once you have the power you can do and say anything you like. or you can influence others to do what you say. if don't believe ask nazri. when cornered he'll say WE ARE THE ELECTED! WE HAVE THE MANDATE! never mind if you talk cock. it's ok if you talk nonsense, you are in power whaaat.
Now still talk about 'membasmi kemiskinan' - aduh, aduh...di negara ini masih ada orang miskin. walau pun bilion sana bilion sini milion sana milion sini juta san juta sini juta poket itu juta poket ini, kesiaaaan yang miskin terus miskin. yang putar belit terus putar belit...alahai rakyat malaysia bodohnya kamu

Slade said...

Ulasan saudara Pasir Salak bahawa hal negara sekular atau tidak sekular adalah sesuatu yang berkait dengan perlembagaan negara dan sedemikian adalah sebuah isu kehakiman memang relevan sekali. Pandangan yang telah diberi oleh beberapa ahli politik baru-baru ini adalah pandangan mereka sendiri dan tidak semestinya berlandaskan perlembagaan atau apa yang sebenar. Maka keputusan mahkamah yang dibuat pada 1988 yang tidak menyangkal perlembagaan harus dijadikan rujukan.

Anonymous said...

Can we the Rakyat seek a vote of No Confidence for AAB?

Kerp (Ph.D) said...

i am even more confused. So are we, or are we NOT, a bunch of howler monkeys?

skilgannon1066 said...

I am reminded that in Pakistan, which is an Islamic state (has it acknowledged itself to be one?), the Supreme Court reinstated the country's Chief Justice who had been sacked by the President.

And the President had no choice, but to accept the decision of the Court and make peace with the Chief Justice.

I am reminded also of a similar incident in Malaysia some years ago, which turned out differently.......

Of course, our ministers carefully avoided this particular issue. I am waiting for the Opposition to raise it in Parliament!

Anonymous said...

I am not sleeping nor am I hibernating. But my consciousness is based on my appointment by BN.

mob1900 said...

At times like these, the best is to ask the Malay Male aka Amir Hafizi aka The Omega Telur Unta! Me sure he would have all answers to the universe! lolx

pollyneedsacracker said...

When they face the Malays, they will say it's an Islamic State.

When they face the non-Malaysa, they will say it's a democratic, secular, blah blah blah state.

As far as I am concerned, it's nothing more than a wayang kulit.

-The Man Who Sold The World-

amir said...

Yes, as a matter of fact, I do.

I agree with Pak Lah. Malaysia is neither secular nor theocratic.

Malaysia is a country where you can be anything you want and do whatever you want. As long as you don't get caught.

That's it. That's LAW.

artchan said...

MR PM...read the constitution..WHAT DOES IT SAY?

If the Constitution is supreme..unless you want to hijack the Constitution..it is clearly stated Malaysia is secular

I can accept it if you are "blur blur" on other issues..or prefer "I do not Know" sickness....but as PM if you don't know this as fact..maybe you should step down and give way to others.

bamboo river said...

By looking at that flow chart. not only I am lost. I guess an ISO expert too will find it confusing.
So, our gomen is confused or LOST?

old female fart said...

You CYNICS and CRITICS out there -do read what Raja Nazrin has to say on pg 12 NST today.

I'd like to hear a clever/well-argued repudiation!

Anonymous said...

Bru, is our Pak Lelah giving in to pressure? See the story that apperaed in Today online:

Malaysia minister breaks ranks over 'Islamic state' remark
KUALA LUMPUR — A senior Cabinet Minister has broken ranks with the Deputy Prime Minister on whether Malaysia is an Islamic state or not, reported Malaysiakini.
.
Mr Bernard Dompok, Minister in the Prime Minister's Department, said yesterday that the nation's founding fathers had intended the country to be a secular state when the Federation of Malaysia was formed in 1963.
.
"I hope my colleagues in the government can forgive me for saying I do not agree we are an Islamic state," Mr Dompok said at an event organised by the Centre for Public Policy Studies.
.
"People I know would be very unhappy if this type of thing persists," he said, adding that Malaysians would "have to contend with the issue for now".
.
Mr Dompok also criticised the Malaysian courts for being indecisive on cases concerning religion, reported Malaysiakini. "The judiciary seems to play football with cases. It is neither for Syariah nor civil courts," he said.
.
Mr Dompok is the first minister to speak out on the controversy following DPM Najib Razak's remarks last month. He had said: "Islam is the official religion and we are an Islamic state."
.
However, when asked about the spate of religious disputes dominating news headlines, Prime Minister Abdullah Ahmad Badawi said: "For those who don't want to be Muslims anymore, what can you do?"
.
Speaking in his personal capacity, he added: "If they want to leave the religion, what are you going to do? You might as well let them go."

KUALA LUMPUR — A senior Cabinet Minister has broken ranks with the Deputy Prime Minister on whether Malaysia is an Islamic state or not, reported Malaysiakini.
.
Mr Bernard Dompok, Minister in the Prime Minister's Department, said yesterday that the nation's founding fathers had intended the country to be a secular state when the Federation of Malaysia was formed in 1963.
.
"I hope my colleagues in the government can forgive me for saying I do not agree we are an Islamic state," Mr Dompok said at an event organised by the Centre for Public Policy Studies.
.
"People I know would be very unhappy if this type of thing persists," he said, adding that Malaysians would "have to contend with the issue for now".
.
Mr Dompok also criticised the Malaysian courts for being indecisive on cases concerning religion, reported Malaysiakini. "The judiciary seems to play football with cases. It is neither for Syariah nor civil courts," he said.
.
Mr Dompok is the first minister to speak out on the controversy following DPM Najib Razak's remarks last month. He had said: "Islam is the official religion and we are an Islamic state."
.
However, when asked about the spate of religious disputes dominating news headlines, Prime Minister Abdullah Ahmad Badawi said: "For those who don't want to be Muslims anymore, what can you do?"
.
Speaking in his personal capacity, he added: "If they want to leave the religion, what are you going to do? You might as well let them go."
KUALA LUMPUR — A senior Cabinet Minister has broken ranks with the Deputy Prime Minister on whether Malaysia is an Islamic state or not, reported Malaysiakini.
.
Mr Bernard Dompok, Minister in the Prime Minister's Department, said yesterday that the nation's founding fathers had intended the country to be a secular state when the Federation of Malaysia was formed in 1963.
.
"I hope my colleagues in the government can forgive me for saying I do not agree we are an Islamic state," Mr Dompok said at an event organised by the Centre for Public Policy Studies.
.
"People I know would be very unhappy if this type of thing persists," he said, adding that Malaysians would "have to contend with the issue for now".
.
Mr Dompok also criticised the Malaysian courts for being indecisive on cases concerning religion, reported Malaysiakini. "The judiciary seems to play football with cases. It is neither for Syariah nor civil courts," he said.
.
Mr Dompok is the first minister to speak out on the controversy following DPM Najib Razak's remarks last month. He had said: "Islam is the official religion and we are an Islamic state."
.
However, when asked about the spate of religious disputes dominating news headlines, Prime Minister Abdullah Ahmad Badawi said: "For those who don't want to be Muslims anymore, what can you do?"
.
Speaking in his personal capacity, he added: "If they want to leave the religion, what are you going to do? You might as well let them go."
KUALA LUMPUR — A senior Cabinet Minister has broken ranks with the Deputy Prime Minister on whether Malaysia is an Islamic state or not, reported Malaysiakini.
.
Mr Bernard Dompok, Minister in the Prime Minister's Department, said yesterday that the nation's founding fathers had intended the country to be a secular state when the Federation of Malaysia was formed in 1963.
.
"I hope my colleagues in the government can forgive me for saying I do not agree we are an Islamic state," Mr Dompok said at an event organised by the Centre for Public Policy Studies.
.
"People I know would be very unhappy if this type of thing persists," he said, adding that Malaysians would "have to contend with the issue for now".
.
Mr Dompok also criticised the Malaysian courts for being indecisive on cases concerning religion, reported Malaysiakini. "The judiciary seems to play football with cases. It is neither for Syariah nor civil courts," he said.
.
Mr Dompok is the first minister to speak out on the controversy following DPM Najib Razak's remarks last month. He had said: "Islam is the official religion and we are an Islamic state."
.
However, when asked about the spate of religious disputes dominating news headlines, Prime Minister Abdullah Ahmad Badawi said: "For those who don't want to be Muslims anymore, what can you do?"
.
Speaking in his personal capacity, he added: "If they want to leave the religion, what are you going to do? You might as well let them go."

Anonymous said...

You see, a banana is not a durian but a fruit. But durian is neither a banana nor a fruit. Only the pulp of the durian is a fruit and the banana skin is a fruit but not the inside. Therefore, the inside of the banana and the durian is based as a fruit. So far, get what I mean. The durian is the king fruit of the banana skin but not the inside banana. Who decides all these?? Ask the mangosteen or the rambutan because these two always accompanied the durian season. Are rambutans and mangosteen fruits?? Ask the government, they are good at spinning definitions.

madmonk

Anonymous said...

Hey, if our elected government is governed by a very confused PM, then it has to be made sure that the entire population of this country be just as confused so that the PM doesn't seem as confused as he is.
And....everyone say ..."ZZZZZZZZZ"

zorro said...

The Malay Male said: ....you can do whatever you want. As long as you don't get caught. I dont agree.
If you know the top cop or top gun you will never get caught; but if you are caught, you can get un-caught if the AG and his crew "screws -up" for you." This is the only instance where a screw-up works for you. How's zat?

Anonymous said...

Is the USA theocratic or secular? It is secular, but founded on Christian principles by pilgrims fleeing religious persecution in the Old World. Its leaders have been Christian, its pledge and currency include the term 'God' alluding to the Christian/Jewish God. Yet its Constitution is firm about the separation of church and state, and advocates religious freedom. That is the kind of model Malaysia should follow.

ARI said...

Artchan, where does it specifically say in the constitution that "Malaysia is secular"?

Are we looking at the same Federal Constitution here?

Anonymous said...

What is the punishment for corruption under Islamic law ?

84D2147 said...

I believe that you are an Islamic State when your Constitution is based on the Quran. Like in Saudi Arabia. Thus, since Malaysia's Constitution doesn't reflect that, I don't think you are an Islamic State. Anyway, Islamic State or not, what's important is that the citizens and non-citizens living and working in the country all live in peace and harmony. Like in Saudi Arabia, America, Malaysia.

artchan said...

ari..
which one are you refering to..

Have a nice day..