I'm a Muslim, mate. Finally, Azhar Mansor, the sailing hero of millions of Malaysians, has come out in the open to declare that he is STILL a Muslim. Depending on the outcome of police investigation, he may sue the sender of the SMS who claimed earlier this month that Azhar the Christian Convert was going to help baptize hundreds of Malay-Muslims at an Ipoh church.
But while he considers that suit, Azhar should start suing publications worldwide which had "made" him a Christian that he is not. This one here, for example, was published way back in June and is still widely quoted and circulated. Because they were not immediately denied, such stories gained credence. And if not challenged now, such stories will become a gospel truth.
[click here to read the Bernama's "I Am A Muslim, says Azhar"; here for a most recent BBC piece on "Life as a secret Christian Convert"].
Sunday, November 19, 2006
The Muslim Yachtsman
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I am a Christian but it matters not a wee bit to me who converts into my religion and who gets out. That is his indivudual right.ReplyDelete
Any religion will not be sullied by an exodus of adherents nor magnified in it greatness by an influx of new converts.
So why not we let a human live accordng to his conscience.
Is it any of my business as to who is not fasting , committing adultery or wearing a "sex dress".
As someone who knows Datuk Azhar Mansor (he is a Federal Datuk too), he best exemplifies the moderate Muslim in today's modern world. Married to a non-Malay and broadminded in his views, he is a believer that each man should lead his life as he knows bestand not be dictated by other people; and that is probably why he refused to issue any denials pertaining to the earlier media reports concerning himself.ReplyDelete
This, to me, is better than some self-professed 'ulamaks' who break laws of the land and practise hypocrisy.
Islam is a religion that permeates as a way of life for individuals. Yet there is no individual rights in Islam defined and practised in Malaysia. How is this possible?ReplyDelete
Absence of personal choice over so personal a matter as that between man and Allah makes it no different from state dogma. How is this possible?
Pin these two points somewhere; there is a strong likelihood that Malaysians will be asked to remember them one day soon.
There's no denying that some will convert out of their religion at some time in their life.ReplyDelete
However, if one is forced or even denied by legal means to do so, then the message is clear - a hypocrite is better than being apostate. If this is the case what do you make of the religion?
Well said Mr. Smith. I just cant understand the big fuss. There are so much of things to be done than trying to prove Datuk Azhar is still a Muslim. Why is it such a big deal? I just can understand.ReplyDelete
mr black&whitesmith says....ReplyDelete
mr smith, unlike other "rekigion", Islam is NOT only in name it is a "din" loosely translated as a way of life; and that it is a Truth.
You just can't simply remove or divorce yourself from what is true and real and move over to something is NOT.
Other religions may have in its "worldview" impinging on human rights, freedom of choice and many other concepts and principles but pray do tell,if the other religions claim to the truth, one just can't simply leave to something that is untruth or false.
There is no two ways about it.
dear anonymous 5.04 pm-ReplyDelete
"unlike other "religion", Islam is NOT only in name it is a "din" loosely translated as a way of life; and that it is a Truth.
You just can't simply remove or divorce yourself from what is true and real and move over to something is NOT"
It is "a truth"? But is it the truth? What is your understanding of other religions that you feel that one religion is a way of life while the other is not? Are you saying that the teachings of other religion teaches its followers to kill, rob, rape and commit incest? Certainly these examples cannot be a way of life can it?
a person i feel cannot be forced to convert or be asked to follow a certain way of teaching if he or she does not want to. in india for example, a non muslim person can get married to a muslim without being forced to convert.and the same couple will live under the same roof and are free to have the quran and the bibble or a picture of a hindu god. i have muslim friends from india who keep pictures and statues of hindu gods as well as the crucifix with them. they are also the same people who don't mind attending hindu religios functions and prayers.when ask these friends of mine say what is the harm? every religion teaches good things.and god is everywhere be it in the form of a statue or elsewise.
hence, why must there be condemning and hatred towards other relgions in the first place.
credit ought to be given to "ding-ding" for having a broader and more realistic approach to comment on the current issue. Everyone and anyone should indeed be able to lead his or her life without being dicated by others as long as he or she feels that no harm is caused on him or others.
and as mr smith said-what's the bigg fuss anyway...there are much more better things to be dealt with as opposed to glorifying one religion over another.
Why all this INSECURITY over conversion ? In every other religion when one chooses to leave or convert to another religion other then what he was born into.. We would like to think this person is not GOOD ENOUGH to be what he was born into in the first place !ReplyDelete
Nobody can say there is NO TWO WAYS ABOUT IT... thats bull...God gave us the freedom to Choose and a brain to think ! EVERY RELIGION THAT TEACHES LOVE, IS A WAY OF LIFE ! God in any language...is a good AND LOVING GOD ! don't confuse Religion to CULTS okay ??
All the postings on this issue so far points out to 1 fact - what is important to 1 person may not be so to another.ReplyDelete
Don't waste your time on Azhar Mansor.
Don't simply assume he is what he said. In Malaysia, you have to say something to protect yourself, your family members, loved ones, careers, etc.
Anyway, I don't care whether he is a Muslim, Christian, Buddhist, Zoroastrian (sic?) or what-have-you.
I'm a Muslim and I've decided to stick to this faith, but I don't expect anyone else to do the same.
By now, I simply assume that Dato' Azhar is already a non-Muslim, but that doesn't change my admiration for what he did with his boat years ago.
And I don't see him as an 'inferior' being either, unlike how most Muslim Morons in this country look upon those who had left Islam.
You can be a Hindu tomorrow, Rocky, but I won't think any less of you.
If religious leaders/police have to force their religion/belief on someone/their flock, doesn't that just undermine the credibility of the religion in question? Why such enforcement ... leads one to think that perhaps the Muslims are Muslims only because there's no way out.. yes? What a terrible situation to be in.ReplyDelete
Just to share this pleasant news: Last Saturday (18/11), the Taman Desa mosque organised a Hari Raya open house within the mosque's premises.ReplyDelete
Prior to that day, the committee sent out notices to all the households of Tmn Desa, inviting people to join in the open house, irrespective of their religion, colour, or whether they go sailing or not.
My Punjabi friend told me she went with her mother and sister. The open house was held between 1.30 and 4pm.
She did see some Chinese (presumably non-Muslims too) and Indians (also presumably non-Muslims) at the party.
I'd love to go but couldn't because I had to attend the Proton Holdings open house in Shah Alam and later on, an Alfa Romeo event in Bangsar.
I hope my friend took photos...
(in response to anonymous 7:29pm)ReplyDelete
It is not a question of insecurity. It is about the enforcement of Islamic law. In Islam, it is a fact that there is no two ways about it. I won’t attempt to argue on the merits of Islamic law – because this is not the forum for comparative religion -- but it is important for non muslims to appreciate that muslims (including muslim authorities) have to obey God’s laws, which really should not be subordinate to laws of the politicians. (Again, I do not wish to argue why not).
Yes, God has given us freedom to choose but within the law and we will be accountable for everyting that we do and for things we neglect to do. In the Quran, God has stated that He will only accept Islam and no other religion. I’m not preaching – I merely want to convey the view of muslims that “there is no two ways” about certain matters, whether we (muslims) like it or not. For example, we can choose between doing good and evil but a god fearing authority would not let the evil go unpunished because then they would be neglecting their duties as muslims or christians. Under Islam, a leader will be questioned not only for his own personal deeds but also, broadly speaking, his policies and law enforcement.
I also agree with anonymous that God in any language is a good and loving god. But for muslims, it is also stated in the Quran what displeases him and what incurs his wrath. (Just for the record).
My dear muslims and non muslims. Please let’s not use this blog for religious debate because each will have his/her own stand based on the extent of his/her own faith and obedience of his/her religion. Remember we have a bunch of malay idiots in UMNO who are ruining the country and who would gleefuly use the religious and race cards for their benefit. I believe that we – chinese, indians, malays, muslims, christians – are actually getting along very well. There will be differences among us, but these are all actually manageable as long as we do not play to the tune of those who deliberately blow up issues in their own interest.
here is a rhetorical question for all those who claim to believe in God and the hereafter:ReplyDelete
1. now that the "Malaysian Political & Religious Authorities" have vouched for Azhar's religious inclination, is this going to be good enough to convince the "guardians of heaven and hell" in the afterlife?
on the other hand, if you do not believe in God and the hereafter then this doesn't really concern you, does it?
Faith is a personal thing. Do we all have faith? Real faith? How many of us can rationalise their faith in the religion they're born into? I've come across of born Muslims, Hindus and Buddhists who cannot rationalise why they worship certain God, deity or whatever. Its like when you eat a green apple, you might think it's sour but it may not be sour to me. I love chicken rice, but you may detest it. I cannot force you to like chicken rice just because I think chicken rice is the best food in the world.ReplyDelete
I can slap you hard on the face and you might not feel the burning pain. If I slap your brother as hard as I slapped you, he might feel the pain.
Religion is the same thing. We all have our reasons to believe in a particular religion. Its personal.
If I remember correctly, Islam does not use force. It does, however, use consultative approach.
AZLAN, I salute you.Iknow a muslim who coverted to Christianity and was ISAed. He is free now and conducts his own ministry. He preaches goodwill and charity to all men. Again, Azlan, I salute you.ReplyDelete
You either don’t know your own religion or you are not a muslim. Otherwise you would not have said all that nonsense to have people like zorro applaud you.
- A true muslim would not have assumed, what more openly state his assumption, that Dato’ Azhar is a non-muslim after he has declared himself to still be one
- A true muslim does not view any other person as inferior by virtue of his faith nor falsely allege that most of the muslim community does.
- A true muslim does not flippantly tell another he could become a non muslim the next day and endorse it
And do you seriously think that anyone is going to care whether you think any more or less of him compared to what God might think of him? (Sorry rocky, I know you can speak for yourself but I’m making a general statement).
Tell us who you really are Azlan and how well you know Islam. Otherwise don't try to fool muslims and non muslims alike with opinions based on your self-concocted notions rather than on the quran and sunnah.
"You either don’t know your own religion or you are not a Muslim. Otherwise you would not have said all that nonsense to have people like zorro applaud you."
"A true muslim would not have assumed, what more openly state his assumption, that Dato’ Azhar...."
"A true muslim does not view any other person as inferior by virtue of his faith nor falsely allege that most of the muslim community does..."
"A true muslim does not flippantly tell another he could become a non muslim the next day and endorse it..."
And do you seriously think that anyone is going to care whether you think any more or less of him compared to what God might think of him?.
".... how well you know Islam. Otherwise don't try to fool muslims and non muslims alike with opinions based on your self-concocted notions rather than on the quran and sunnah."
I'm Azlan Ramli and I'm a nobody. I did not proclaim to know Islam "well" but you arrogantly sounded like an expert. Therefore, I thank you for even reacting to my comments. I thank Zorro for his salute, although I wasn't expecting any.
But enough with your rubbish Azmi.
Read my comments SLOWLY & CAREFULLY.
1. I may not know my religion well but I'm still a Muslim. Saying that I may not be a Muslim or I may not know it well enough shows how shallow you are to use that I-know-better tone. You already are being berlagak & takbur. Jangan sombong dgn apa yang awak tahu, Azmi. Share it with others nicely and gently.
2. I did not claim to be a true Muslim. I have every right to (openly) assume - and not expect others to believe me - who is already what. Whether the boatman is still a Muslim or not matters not to me. He is still Dato' Azhar Mansur. Only God knows what is inside.
3. Show me where in my comment did I say a true muslim viewing "any other person as inferior by virtue of his faith..."
Show me, Azmi!
I only used "Muslim Morons" looking at those who have left Islam as inferior.
Did I "allege that most of the muslim community does..."?
OK, for this one, I apologise. Not "most of the Muslim" but many Muslim MORONS.
Get a pair of reading glasses, Azmi.
4. Let's just say Rocky becomes a Hindu (yeah, he can speak for himself but what the heck...) esok. I am not going to endorse it, yes, I won't. I merely said that I won't think any less of him. PAHAM?
5. I'm not trying to "fool Muslims and non-Muslims alike". You are insulting them indirectly, Azmi. They can think for themselves.
If the Muslims can be fooled by my simply words, I don't think they even have the mental capacity to use the Internet and check out this blog of Rocky's.
By our average physical size, we have the biggest and (supposedly) best brains in this world. Why? Because we need it to interpret the Quran and sunnah. Therefore, I dare say that we need some form of "self-concocting", but ONLY based on our interpretations of the Quran and sunnah. That, I leave it to the Muslim scholars and bijak-pandai.
They used their brains a lot.
I use it a little, I humbly admit.
You do not, apparently. At all.
READ SLOWLY AND CAREFULLY, AZMI. YOU MISUNDERSTOOD MY COMMENTS. WHERE DID YOU PUT YOUR READING GLASSES?
First of all let me say that I responded to your comments because I felt you were insulting Islam and muslims. If you did not intend to do that, then please accept my humble apologies. Your response made me feel guilty. Nevertheless, let’s go through each of the points you contended. And for the record, I’m a nobody too.
1. “I may not know my religion well but I'm still a Muslim. Saying that I may not be a Muslim or I may not know it well enough shows how shallow you are to use that I-know-better tone. You already are being berlagak & takbur. Jangan sombong dgn apa yang awak tahu, Azmi. Share it with others nicely and gently.”
Azlan, I did not mean to use the i-know-better tone. (But I have to admit that my earlier preconception above probably had an influence on the tone). I was trying to make a statement of fact. If I tell anyone that islam says such-and-such then it is because I feel obliged to correct something which could be misconstrued, not because I’m trying to show I am more knowledgeable. I’m sorry if it did not come out nicely and gently – that would indeed be my fault. But brother, I implore you to know more about the religion if you’re not already continously seeking the knowledge – you will certainly benefit. And I would be more than happy to learn from you and anyone else.
2. “I did not claim to be a true Muslim. I have every right to (openly) assume - and not expect others to believe me - who is already what. Whether the boatman is still a Muslim or not matters not to me. He is still Dato' Azhar Mansur. Only God knows what is inside.”
You are right; only God knows truly whether he is a muslim or not. But strictly, neither one of us has the right to publicly state an assumption that he is not. I mean, of course there is nothing to stop you from saying it but it is improper at best to say it and sinful at worst because it could discredit him. But you actually said something worse, which was:
“Don't simply assume he is what he said. In Malaysia, you have to say something to protect yourself, your family members, loved ones, careers, etc.”.
That sounds more like trying to PERSUADE the public to think that he’s not a muslim, don’t you think? Honestly Azlan, with no tone of self righteousness, I’m afraid I have to humbly maintain my stand on this. Unless, of course, I do indeed need reading glasses as you say. Allah knows best.
3. “Show me where in my comment did I say a true muslim viewing "any other person as inferior by virtue of his faith..." Show me, Azmi! I only used "Muslim Morons" looking at those who have left Islam as inferior. Did I "allege that most of the muslim community does..."? OK, for this one, I apologise. Not "most of the Muslim" but many Muslim MORONS. Get a pair of reading glasses, Azmi.”
This is what you said earlier:
“And I don't see him as an 'inferior' being either, unlike how most Muslim Morons in this country look upon those who had left Islam.”
Going by your apology – which I accept :-) – I think I no longer need to address that you had actually said “most” rather than “many”. To be honest, I don’t think “many” is correct either but that wouldn’t be worth disputing because neither one of us would be able to prove such a broadly qualitative measure. “Some” or “a minority” would not have drawn any objection from me at all.
Actually, maybe you should not then have used the word “inferior”. “Less respectful of apostates” may have been more accurate (which is not the same as “inferior”). Because I certainly can be less respectful of an apostate yet not consider him inferior. But before the non muslims jump on me, I better mention that I truly have respect for countless non muslims.
4. “Let's just say Rocky becomes a Hindu (yeah, he can speak for himself but what the heck...) esok. I am not going to endorse it, yes, I won't. I merely said that I won't think any less of him. PAHAM?”
Okay, I’m not going to argue on this point because it looks like a misunderstanding. My mistake for implying that it would be an endorsement. My humble apologies. (Rocky, sorry you had to become a subject for this).
5. “I'm not trying to "fool Muslims and non-Muslims alike". You are insulting them indirectly, Azmi. They can think for themselves. If the Muslims can be fooled by my simply words, I don't think they even have the mental capacity to use the Internet and check out this blog of Rocky's.”
With all due respect to non muslims, it is not because of intellect that they believe wrong information on Islam. It is because most (yes, MOST) would not, and understandably so, check the quran and hadith for accuracy of views pesented by muslims. But I do humbly apologise for accusing you of trying to fool muslims and non muslims. I should not have said that and withdraw my comment unconditionally. Please forgive me for that.
“By our average physical size, we have the biggest and (supposedly) best brains in this world. Why? Because we need it to interpret the Quran and sunnah. Therefore, I dare say that we need some form of "self-concocting", but ONLY based on our interpretations of the Quran and sunnah. That, I leave it to the Muslim scholars and bijak-pandai.”
I’m sorry azlan but I can only agree with half of your response. “Self-concocting but only based on the quran and sunnah” is a bit self-contradicting. This is what can lead to bid’ah (innovation). There are already well established principles in fiqh (islamic jurisprudence) and generally speaking there is little left to re-interpret.
Azlan, again please accept my humble apologies if you felt I was attacking your character. I won’t ask you to look for your reading glasses but please try to now view everything I’ve said as an attempt to relay facts with no intention to discredit you. Like I said at the start, your responses made me feel guilty and I thank you for pointing out my weaknesses.
Rocky, sorry for this long post.
Errmm...Azhar Mansor murtad ke tak..Tak tau la.Tapi,murtad tetap salah.Yg dah lahir Islam tetap tak boleh keluar dpd agama.Tak boleh pilih agama lain.Itu je.Senang.Kan dah diajar sejak sekolah rendah lagi...Tak boleh dipertikaikan.ReplyDelete
I accept your apology.
Now, wasn't that a better way to speak?
- Nope, I don't think I'm trying to PERSUADE the public to think that the mariner is not a Muslim.
Again, I am a nobody for the public to be easily persuaded. If you think I have such an ability (misleading the public), thank you Azmi. I take it as a compliment.
Please do not belittle and insult the public's capability of using their brains.
As for the rest, I'm tired of typing to explain things to you and whomever out there who would 'easily' be 'fooled' and misled by me (red alert!).
You made a bad first impression when you came out with that chest-thumpingly arrogant attitude. The damage has been done.
Therefore, I feel I should better use my time for something else. Thanks for making me realise it...
Let's just say that when you read something, there are other words too - between the lines.
To sis: Yes, undang-undang tetap undang-undang. I never disputed that.
I am a muslim and really saddened by the remarks made in this comment. It is tru that Malaysian has the freedom of religion but you must also bear in mind that every muslim are bound by islamic laws. Islam has it's own set of islamic laws governing each muslim.ReplyDelete
Any of you can say what ever you want to say but the facts is, there is syariah law. It is wrong for Muslim to leave it's religion as there is no reason for the person to do so. If the person talks about faith, then why should you loose your faith when your prayers are not answered? Isn't it a test from god to test your faith?
As a Muslim, patience is utmost important. I've read the articles and are not happy with the excuses given by the muslim converts. If they have so many questions or doubts, why not talk to someone who can better explain what is faith about? Why must you just jump ship? I'm not condemming other religion but no other religion has a law about "abandoning" their faith expect Islam. That's what make islam perfect.
On Dato Azhar Mansor, his story of being a christian is still daubtfull but if he really want to clear the air, why not just take the islamic oath (syahadat)publicly? I would definately do it if I want to really declare my faith to Islam.
All this debates about converts,apostates,religion,races and much more really stirs me..The Muslim's talk about their right and vice versa for the non Muslims...It's their right...ReplyDelete
But for once..have you ever wondered why are you a Muslim,A Buddhist,a Hindu,a Christian and many more religions ,at the first glance..
I do truly believe that was god's choice irrespective to which denomination he belongs...For e.g. if you were born as a Hindu,I don't think you'll be championing Muslims and their Sunnah,if you were born as Muslim,I don't see you'll be championing the way of Confucius..
What I wanted to say was, that most of us are and following a particular denomination just for the reason we were born into it.And I really do think that God had a say in that..And the Satan did his work well by causing us to question each others way of live and he(the Satan) rejoiced...
Just as the great Martin Luther King said " I had a dream", so do I.A dream where all men and women are able to be united and be one irrespective of colour,religion,race and other issues.
We were born first and then we were conferred the religion later...The god never picked a religion for you while you were in the womb ,our parents did,and who we are today are mostly due to that factor..
learn how to respect others and their religions..keep your views healthy and the world will be a better for us to transit trough....And I'm sorry if my views contradicts with yours,but then that's how I perceive mine...No two clouds are alike...So do two souls...
(Rocky, I apologise again for this long post. I don’t mean to test your patience).ReplyDelete
You said “Let's just say that when you read something, there are other words too - between the lines.”
And how right you are. Why do you then think I initially responded to your post? It was because I felt you were sending the wrong signals.
While I am grateful that you accept my apology for the earlier post, I have to say that you’ve just invited me to respond to this latest discontention of yours. Yes Azlan, you’re probably saying “Show me Azmi! Show me where I said I am inviting a response from you!”. Sorry, I’m not falling for that again. If I have to keep spelling it out for you then I agree with you that you should better use your time for something else.
Azlan, you will have noticed that I had not responded to your earlier non-constructive attacks like “They used their brains a lot. I use it a little, I humbly admit. You do not, apparently. At all.”. I chose to let it go because you sounded bitter and might perhaps later give me some benefit of the doubt that I’m not really brainless. You also said “you arrogantly sounded like an expert”. I chose to let that go too and instead opted for the “nice & gentle” approach (the one you preach but do not practise) in my response which was merely to keep to the facts. (And I think I apologised more than once).
Now you come out again with all this silliness and I feel I can’t let my silence be deemed as concurrence, especially when you have demonstrated a strange way of deciding as you see fit when to take words literally and when to read between the lines -- depending on what allows you to wriggle your way out of a spot.
Read your own posts “SLOWLY & CAREFULLY” (in your own words, twice told to me). Azlan, please also apply these wise words to yourself. When I re-read your posts SLOWLY and CAREFULLY I was telling myself (reservedly I have to admit) well, maybe this guy didn’t really mean this but meant that. I gave you the benefit of the doubt when I said I may have misunderstood you because it would have been pointless for me to insist that your comments did indeed imply such-and such. So when I decided to apologise, please don’t now suddenly go to the top of the hill and roar to show how well you stood your ground. That’s what i perceive Azlan – so there is no point in you trying to claim otherwise (just as I did not see any point in trying to explain that I was not arrogant as you claimed. If i came across as arrogant then it must have been my fault. I think you get the picture).
You said “Please do not belittle and insult the public's capability of using their brains”
I don’t know what your problem is mate. I already explained how I do not insult the public’s intelligence and yet you play that broken record. I have no doubt everyone else understood what I said straightforwardly. If you did understand what I said yet chose to drive your point of discontention further then you’re just being a simple pain in the a*s. Enough la.
You said to me “You made a bad first impression when you came out with that chest-thumpingly arrogant attitude. The damage has been done.”
Again, you want to call me arrogant despite my apologising for the tone (because I didn’t mean to sound that way). And now you throw in “chest thumping” for added flavour. Look at yourself and honestly reflect whether you are closer to sounding humble or arrogant. Please don’t post your answer – it’s for you yourself to reflect on.
You said “Nope, I don't think I'm trying to PERSUADE the public to think that the mariner is not a Muslim. Again, I am a nobody for the public to be easily persuaded. If you think I have such an ability (misleading the public), thank you Azmi. I take it as a compliment.”
I did a google search on your name and you are a famous journalist with good credentials. I assume you are that person so you are not a nobody and there is a real risk that the public can be influenced by what you say. Yes Azlan, you can take that as a compliment – just don’t be arrogant about it. A lot of things you say do make sense therefore it is plausible that on the RARE occasions you UNINTENTIONALLY make an error the public could unwittingly take it as fact. And it is not because they lack the intelligence. If you mistakenly said that rocky has 5 cats in his house, would the public be any less intelligent to believe you? Of course not. Because what motive could you possible have to lie about it? No azlan, before you ask me what this has to do with the price of bananas in south america, this is not an analogy to the mariner. I am merely giving an absolute example on its own to convince you that an intelligent public is also susceptible to misinformation.
Anyway, it is not surprising that you deny that you were trying to persuade the public because you’d be out of your mind if you truly intended it. But read slowly and carefully that I said “That SOUNDS MORE LIKE trying to PERSUADE the public to think that he’s not a muslim, don’t you think?”. I didn’t say “you are telling the public…”. Perhaps I should have said “it could possibly, perhaps, maybe, persuade the public, although absolutely untintentionally…..”. But the thing is I think you already knew exactly what I was trying to say but are hiding behind literal definitions. Oh boy, it’s very tiring spelling things out.
“The damage has been done”. And what damage was done may I ask? That I made a bad impression of myself in your eyes? Well, I must I admit I had no intention of making a good impression on you so that’s okay. Or was it the damage to your ego? No, I’m sure you wouldn’t admit to that. Sorry Azlan, you must learn to take it on the chin. Admit mistakes when you make them. Why bother playing with words to conceal them. Dah salah tu salah laa...
Just before you closed you said “As for the rest, I'm tired of typing to explain things to you and whomever out there who would 'easily' be 'fooled' and misled by me (red alert!)”
There you go again. I don’t think I need say anymore on this because this remark stems from your own misconception of the correlation between intelligence and misinformation which has already been addressed.
You said in closing “To sis: Yes, undang-undang tetap undang-undang. I never disputed that.”
Nobody said you disputed the law. I was implying that you were merely not too bothered if it was not enforced by the authorities and you were sending the message that others shouldn’t bother either.
That was my real concern. I was truly afraid that people might think that it as actually ok to leave others to their own devices no matter how sinful or that religion is purely between the individual and God. Yes, in some cases where someone chooses to sin, it would be none of our business and he’ll just answer to God later. But there are also instances where we ourselves are committing sin merely because we did not prevent a wrongdoing or chose to ignore it and I think apostasy is at the top of that list. I wouldn’t even dare joke about it.
One thing I would have to admit. You and I can both have our messages misconstrued. Sometimes it is because of prejudice and preconceived notions and not simply the inadvertent misuse of language. But that doesn't mean we can't clear the air amicably.
By the way, I don’t retract my previous apology. That was sincere.
May Allah have mercy on us for falling into this unnecessary dispute.
a muslim shhould be proud to be a muslim.reciting the shahadah is the first criterion as a muslim.if a muslim is ashamed to recite the shahadah,then he is a non muslim.a muslim must be proud of his faith.ReplyDelete
Azmi, I really envy you with the amount of free time you have (Googling my name? Gosh! I'm flattered).
Too bad, I'm a wee bit busier than you (misleading the public, making people believe Rocky has 5 cats and overall world domination.. hah! ;)
Nevermind lah, I agree to disagree with you. On which part? Naaah, penat nak explain.
As far as I'm concerned, whoever nak convert to other religion can do so - at their own risk, of course. Point is, you can threaten them, 'cuff them, lock 'em up and even excute them (sheesh) but kalau hati (Mat Salleh kata 'heart' la kan) dia dah set on it, what can we do?
Ucaplah kalimah syahadah in public, on TV and/or radio - saying it like the Arabs do - with a perfect tajwid for safe measure.
Still, nobody knows what is truly inside.
Yes, kita ada undang-undang. Pakailah. Enforce-lah.
And yes, nobody will know what is truly inside...
Aiyyo Azlan.... i honestly don't really have that much idle time even after the sun goes down. Which is why those two posts were way past midnight!ReplyDelete
I agree. Only Allah knows what is truly inside...
p/s i was trying to read between the lines for insults but my reading glasses failed me :p
OK Rocky and you Malaysians out there (Azmi, Azlan, Bolan, Nolan, Palan, Jalan... WHOEVER!), I have only this to say:ReplyDelete
(Rocky, my apology for being blunt, but even my mom doesn't have an answer for that!)
If the Datuk Mariner is reading this (or ding ding, if you really know him, do us ALL a favour, point him here!), I invite (read: urge, challenge) Azhar Mansur to mengucap the syahadah IN PUBLIC. Let me also remind him that his refusal to do so is tantamount to menimbulkan fitnah...
OK, if the rest of u want to hit out at me, you'd be wasting your time, for your opinion (and mine as well) is worthless. The law of the Creator is absolute, since the subject matter is about the Holy one. Not about you and I.
So, Azhar Mansor, kalau kau betul2 masih Islam, buktikan dengan mengucap in public... kalau kau masih Islam, kau tahu hukumnya menimbulkan fitnah... Kalau kau bukan lagi Islam, jawapan kau kat press conference tu memang INFANTILE! Baby baru lahir pun tahu read between the lines! If Sharifah Amani sounds stupid speaking in Malay, I guess you are stupider for thinking you could mislead us!
Kalau kau masih Islam, aku huluq tangan, salam dan mintak maaf... Sesungguhnya aku ikhlas meminta maaf, dan Waalahu'allam...
I actually do share your sentiment. I personally would like to see him mengucap syahadah in public or perhaps be seen performing prayers kat masjid, if not anything else, to stop the public from debating (or, worse, as you said, indulging in fitnah) whether he is still a muslim or not. Being a muslim myself (with my own shortcomings), i dare not assume that he is not.
I am not knowledgable enough to know whether we have a right to demand that he mengucap syahadah in public under these specific circumstances but I think it is safe to support your call to URGE him to do it for the sake of avoiding fitnah amongst the muslim community.
But as Azlan said earlier:
"Ucaplah kalimah syahadah in public, on TV and/or radio - saying it like the Arabs do - with a perfect tajwid for safe measure. Still, nobody knows what is truly inside. Yes, kita ada undang-undang. Pakailah. Enforce-lah. And yes, nobody will know what is truly inside..." ... Allah sahaja yang tahu. But whatever it is, I would like him to do it for the muslim community’s sake.
Having said all that, in the meantime we have to avoid speculating whether he is or not. Otherwise, ironically, Azhar Mansor punya hal (regardless of whether he is still a muslim or not, regardless dia mengucap ke tak), tak pasal-pasal kita pulak dapat dosa dan kita pulak kena menjawab kepada Allah swt. But yes, i support your call to urge him to come forward. (May Allah have mercy on us).
Yes, non-muslims would think why the muslims are so kaypo (menyibuk, busybody, nosey) about whether Datuk Mariner is still a Muslim or not.
OK, for those who wonder, enough to just say that a muslim has obligations over a fellow muslim. This is wajib, and if one fails in straightening a situation because of no effort, then he is equally liable to be held responsible. Non-muslims may no understand or accept this, but that is the fact. It is the creator's law, and you and I cannot change that. Once a muslim claims to be a muslim, he is putting up a commitment to accept Islam in totality... No ifs and buts... Again, non-Muslims (and some muslims!) think that that is so against human rights. Well, we are not talking about how you and I want things to be. It is how the Creator wants it. Again, this is so, if one claims to be a muslim, and hence, subjects himself to the laws of the Creator.
As for Datuk Mariner, as a fellow muslim (if he is still one), he must not hide the fact he is still a muslim, as anything which is good in Islam, MUST be shared.
Aku bukanlah nak membuat aib dia, tapi as a muslim, it is only right that he puts the worries of his fellow muslims at rest, since this is NOT difficult for him to do...
Again, (Auzubillah himinisyaitan nirajim) I urge Datuk Mariner to come forward and make a confession... if he still cares, and if he is still a muslim. I care because I want to doa for him...
i think it easier for someone to be a muslim quietly rather than a malay practicing other religions quietly... hahahaReplyDelete
what, me christian? .......ReplyDelete
some sensitivity please. the word "christian" is being used like "plague" or "diseased". when used with regard to azhar, the label is inaccurate. it is not insulting. or do you mean it to be?
ministers, muftis and message senders, a little sunday school lesson for you.
I am honestly and sincerely of the view that the title doesn't offend christianity. I would not have felt offended if it had read "what, me muslim?" In reference to neil armstrong. It would be wrong for muslims to insult any religion.
Just for the record, here is a verse from the quran:
"...You will find the people most affectionate to those who have iman are those who say, 'We are Christians.' That is because some of them are priests and monks and because they are not arrogant." (Surat al-Ma'ida; 5:82).