Thursday, October 25, 2012

Aidil Adha and the sacrifices moderate Muslims keep having to make

Iain Buchanan

In Whose Moderate Muslims?, which we hope is the first of many more exclusive and thought-provoking articles for The Mole by the author Iain Buchanan, we confront an environment where not-so-moderate people - extremists, even - tell others the virtues of being what they are not, ie moderate.  

Buchanan says the West demands Muslims fit themselves into its definition of the moderate Muslim but the West has itself failed to abide by the same standards. 

The way to initiate true dialogue between moderates is for the West to take the first three steps to address its own failures.  


  • Firstly, combat the growing influence of "Dominionist" ideas (such as Seven Mountains theology) in Christian evangelical strategy, especially in non-Christian countries; 

  • Secondly, put an end to Christian predacity disguised as love and charity; 

  • Thirdly, disavow the promotion of Christian Zionism by missionary agencies.

".. if (these steps) are taken, at the very least, the behavior of Christian evangelicals in the world at large will be less driven by zealots and less riven with deceit. And a dialogue can begin between moderate people."

In this spirit of korban (sacrifice) for the better, I wish my Dear Readers a blessed Aidil Adha. Selamat Hari Raya Haji.

38 comments:

People Against Opposition said...

http://peopleagainstopposition.blogspot.com

Five Pillars Formula for Malaysia to be A Great Nation
By People Against Opposition

These five pillars constitute the country's own enhanced version from what it is now, of a partnership between the public and private sectors to foster economic growth.

1st Pillar - Provision of Public Mass Education

The government must provide up-to-date education to more and more Malaysians from all walk of life as technology has improved, the country must prepare people to exploit new inventions-from paddy-cultivation machinery to steamship, to assembly lines, to laptops, to the Internet and the latest craze IPad and ICloud. Abolishing PPSMI will only bring the education of this country backwards as English is the soul language for the pursuit of knowledge.

2nd Pillar - Continuous Improvement of Infrastructures

The building and continual improvement of roads, bridges, ports, airports, bandwidth, fiber optic lines, and wireless networks -so that Malaysian workers and firms can communicate and collaborate effectively and deliver their goods and services swiftly and cheaply to their destinations.

3rd Pillar - Total Control to Immigration Doors

We need to control the influx of foreigners to our country by allowing more professionals to come and develop the country to a ratio that exceed the influx of laborers and unskilled workers. We need the best minds in the world to enrich our universities, start new companies, and engineer new breakthroughs from medicine to manufacturing. We are a not a dumping centers for third world refugees.

4th Pillar - Government support for Research and Development

There must be government support for basic research and development which not only increases the store of human knowledge by pushing out the frontiers of basic chemistry, biology, and physics but also spawns new products and processes that will enriched Malaysian entrepreneurs and workers. For the Malaysian economy to keep growing in an information age in which innovation will have a greater economic importance than ever before, research on every front must be more vital than ever before.

5th - Implementation of Regulations on Private Economic Activities

This implementation includes safeguards against financial collapse and environmental destruction, as well as regulations and incentives that encourage capital flow to Malaysia, lead innovators to flock to this country to lodge their patents and intellectual property because if they know that these things will be protected here than it will inspire small businesses and venture capitalist to start up in Malaysia.

In short

To change the chapters to our history, these five pillars will make it possible for Malaysians to apply their individual energies, their talents, and their entrepreneurial drive to make themselves , and this country, richer and more powerful. Taken together , the five will make up a uniquely Malaysian formula for prosperity, one in which the government creates the foundations for the risk taking and innovation delivered by the private sector. This will eventually increase the living standard here and make Malaysia the world's greatest magnet for dreamers everywhere.

Unknown said...

There is a serious misunderstanding of Christianity by the writer.

The ‘dominion’ equates to influence as a result of Christian’s love to God. It is not about dominion over other nations, social status, economy or earthy wealth.
A Christian who lives like Christ would put him/herself before others, and this ultimately brings impact to others. Is dead simple.

This brings to second point – if a Christian sacrifices him/herself to serve others for the love of God, then why would this be a disguise? Maybe the writer himself has been disappointed by many the so-called Christians who behaved worse than a non-believer. The closest example would be a non-muslim thinks a muslims are terrorist due to 911 incident. But we know this is a misunderstanding and need to be addressed differently.

Let me ask differently, if the centre of the biblical claim is that Jesus who had all the glory in heaven was sent to the world to die for the sin of the people in the world, and was put to death by the same people… Then as a believer in Christ, would he not love others for the love from God himself has revealed to him?
Would he not be generous to others? After all, Christians are only temporary in this world that they are in. They believe in something more than this world.

People like George Muller, John Newton, Florence Nightingale and many others were good examples how they shone the love of their Father to the world through their sacrifice.
Shame to say, we have seen some missionary agencies being used by Zionism movements but don’t we know what human good at? Declare wars in the name of religion? Rape someone in the name of God? Blow up a building etc… but we don’t give up religion, do we?

Don’t discount thousands of these agencies providing free health care, free home, provide clean water, farming skill, educations to some of the poorest countries in the world.

Like I said… if the writer really wants to hit the heart of the problem, then he has to look deeper into these and get the real understanding. Thinking that Christians are the problem, and aiming at Christians will only take out the goods that we have in the world but still left with the problems to deal with.

Anonymous said...

rocky.

whats your sacrifice?
a few beers less compensated by a few expensive whisky?
its worth it rocky.

Pasquale said...

Iain you look like that character from the movie The Best Exotic Marigold Hotel, the actors is Ronald Pickup!

Anonymous said...

Selamat Hari Raya Haji pada Saudara Rocky dan semua pembaca.

Semoga penipu dan pencacai pakatan dikorbankan di PRU13 nanti.

Anonymous said...

anon @ 9:45 PM

There have been documented cases of christians zealously trying to convert the nons.

They don't just target the vulnerable and the needy in daily lives. They also consciously zoom in during catastrophes like the tsunami tragedy.

If they are so noble in helping those in need, why MUST they ALSO preach christianity??

I am one such victim. My situation is not that I am in dire need of salvation.

Mine was that they see me as a potential successful Malay Muslim who will be able to contribute to society (meaning help raise the welfare of Malay Muslims).

They are worried and concerned that successful Malay Muslims will increase in numbers.

What "pissed" me off is the DECEITFUL way they attempted to convert me.

Let's not go into details. Suffice to say that their attempts did not stop at ONCE. In fact they did it to me three times at different phases of my youth.

Which is why I never trust Chinese Christians ever again, no matter how nice they are.

This aggressive conversion campaign is TRUE, never be deceived by their justifications like the one put up by UNKNOWN @ 9:45 PM.

Semoga umat Islam dilindungi sentiasa ...

Anonymous said...

The Muslim must do something on Taliban. The inaction on Taliban who like to discriminate women and even shoot children do not give a good image to Islam. Unfortunately most Muslim countries including Malaysia are not willing to do something to solve this permanently.

jebat said...

Selamat Hari Raya Aidil00 Adha.

Muga kita memahami dan menghayati arti KORBAN dan BERKORBAN.

Anonymous said...

"the West demands Muslims fit themselves into its definition of the moderate Muslim but the West has itself failed to abide by the same standards.."
That's true and the West should also create and find their own alternative to their never ending addiction to energy resouces and refrain from trying to dictate the policies in the Arab countries by keeping them at loggerheads between them in never-ending conflicts and installing despots in power. The wealth underneath thier feets are theirs to be kept and the West shouldn't try funnel them else where. We can't no longer bear to see the Middle East in ruins.
and one one more thing, your drones dropping bombs on weddings and funerals in the villages of Pakistan and Afghanistan is not the only way to go. It won't wipe out terrorism and extremism but multiple them in bigger scale. You have Malala Yousafzai fighting for his life in a hospital in the UK shows how badly things turned out over there.

Anonymous said...

Iain, wrong target -xtians are not the problem.

camerlengo said...

"Moderate"?

Let proselytising be a genuine 2-way street. Then we shall see who is moderate and who is fanatical.

You simply cannot play by 2 sets of rules as far as faith and religion are concerned.

There's much to be said for the benefits of a secular state.

Which I don't think Iain endorses.

Anonymous said...

The writer has hit a nerve, hasn't he. The references to those icons who act benign but who are sex offenders, racists, supremacists, extremists in real life are spot on. Former British Prime Minister Tony Blair, for example, talk about the virtues of humanity. He was in KL recently and was paid big bucks to spew his filth. For in reality, TOny Blair is a mass murderer. There are Blairs among the Jews, the Muslims, the Hindus but the writer hits a nerve here because he dares to say there are Blairs among you Christians, too.

Let's face the fact. Extremists exist in all religions. Not just Islam. Not just in the East. So if we want moderation, we have to get rid of all extremists.

--- Mohd Derate --

Anonymous said...

Dear Unknown of 9:45

Thank you very much for that monologue-al synopsis to your Christianity. But far be it from what you term as a “serious misunderstanding of Christianity by the writer”, methinks the opposite is true: Iain Buchanan’s view is perhaps the most accurate description of what goes wrong in this world, namely that the proselytical, evangelical condescending western bible thumpers have a ready-set mould of what the world should look like, with a judeo-christo-centric world-vision not very far from the central purport of this mould. What ignites trouble is when this mould leaves the realm of theory and vision and enters the real world to be activated, particularly the real muslim world, and suddenly all other components of the REAL axis of evil, whether it be Illuminatis, Zionism, New World Order, Communism and perhaps even the Tamil Illam Tigers movement too, would like to ride on this platform for world dominion. And thus do we understand how with great speed and greater vehemence you downplay Buchanan’s nerve-touching, truth-busting, emperor-wearing wardrobes of skeletal secrets.

I would understand very much how Buchanan’s three Wittenberg-style theses rattle your good self. For, truthfully, which snake-oil evangelist in their right episcopal mind would agree to …
(i) combat the growing influence of "Dominionist" ideas (such as Seven Mountains theology) in Christian evangelical strategy, especially in non-Christian countries;

(ii) put an end to Christian predacity disguised as love and charity;

(iii) disavow the promotion of Christian Zionism by missionary agencies.

So it was without much appreciation I winced at your qualms when you quoted “People like George Muller, John Newton, Florence Nightingale and many others” as “good examples how they shone the love of their Father to the world through their sacrifice.” Would these luminaries so much as to bat an eye-lid if they were to show their “love and charity” without any proselytizing connotations attached to their works, based purely upon a human being’s selflessness alone?

In the case of “kind-hearted Mat Sallehs” giving wads of cash to the needy and poor in Indonesia, for example (I have narrated that one here ) – you can call it what you may. But the muslims call it a reversal. From the worship of the One True God to that of a Deity that begat son(s), has wives, loses in wrestling matches, has horns and with fire and smoke coming out of his nostrils (2 Sam 22:9). In which I would be better off NOT getting those free health care etc etc etc.

Thank You but no Thank You.

Apocryphalist
(another Unknown)

Anonymous said...

what a nut!the western world does not allow religion to dictate how the government should work. again ,people like lain can't see the problem but instead play the usually blame game scenario.

the "five pillars formula for malaysia to be a great nation" is a better read than the original post.

Anonymous said...

Revival of Corporate Malaysiana......Go for it...vote for DAP and PAS means establishment of dual theoretical states of evangelical and taliban Federation of Malaysia....the end the dream of 2020 Super Federation of Malays

Prof Awe Kecik

Anonymous said...

Both have reached expiry date. We are in the 21st Century. Need to move on to better things, humanism etc.Leave religion out of politics.

camerlengo said...

Apocryphalist

If all of what you have posted is true, and that's a big if, then why is there so much angst about Muslims converting to other religions (with the biggest condemnations reserved for those who convert to Christianity)?

You fault Christians for all types of sins, but are strangely reticent as to why it's ok for Christians to convert to Islam but not vice versa for Muslims to convert to Christianity.

Let's get this resolved first, before postulating other theories and hypotheses.

The reality is that Christianity is here to stay. Deal with that how you will.

Anonymous said...

Kalau Aidil Adha, just stick to it Dato.

Why choose something on Christianity on this day?

How would you like if - on this day, some one else writes negatively on Islam?

Dont go so far.

In its ulasan berita, RTM Radio mentioned today that we (Malaysia) are blessed with peace whereas/while other Muslim nations are in turmoil.

Can RTM make such remarks about other Muslim nations? And that too, on this day?

Every nation has its own set of challenges, including ours.

Tak payah lah make such comparing remarks, and tak payah lah talk about other Muslim nations like this.

You may want to nudge your 'friend' who heads that ministry?

PARAMESWARA

bru said...

Param,

What I like about Mr Buchana's article is its optimism, that despite the extremists and their ploys to fool folks there is hope for the moderates to sit down and take control of a world that has gone mad.

You should try and see this article that I have published in conjunction with Aidil Adha from that angle instead of sticking to your usual narrow perspective.

Anonymous said...

moderate muslim ? and what the fuck is that ?

go back to basic.. be a fucking moderate son , brother , sister ...

who give a fuck bout moderate muslim , christian , or what ever fucking beliefs...

just be a fucking moderate human being...

Anonymous said...

param param

why so naive? Muslim nations are the stronghold of black gold a commodity that is essential to western countries survival

these "bright" whites have been trying to create alternative energy source but FAILED

so they have to ROB Muslim countries of the OIL as in Iraq and the regime change in all Muslim nations

Simply put it is all about OIL and LAND.

To camouflage their evil greed, they have to psycho gullible people like yourself that Islam is a regressive religion and Muslims are incompetent.

So god has sent them to save the Muslim world and nothing wrong in grabbing land and oil at the same time.

Anonymous said...

Ah Datuk Rocky

We can see that moderate perspective indeed.

Next time - you want to give us such links which has Muslims expressing like that?

Good to also know how people of this faith share similar sentiments - "despite the extremists and their ploys to fool folks there is hope for the moderates to sit down and take control of a world that has gone mad."

It would be more meaningful for such research and sharing in this country - especially where the population is mainly Muslims and the non-Muslim minority can feel comforted that this is the true Islam that non-Muslims needs to know.

PARAMESWARA


Anonymous said...

kinda late..basi.. nothing original about his idea - dah org sebuk moderate itu ini baru lah dia nak sebuk tanya. Masa org bomb towers, potong kepala org yg tk bersalah, letupkan Bamiyan statute mana dia??..zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz boring!

Anonymous said...

I was also a victim of an attempt to convert me to Christianity under the guise of a group of caring friends. It was at the time when i felt lonely and vulnerable. I just arrived in the US at age 18 , this was back in the mid 80's. There were a few Malaysians at my college and there were at that time two distinct groups, either you fraternize with the tablighs or those who were more Mat Saleh than Mat Saleh themselves. None of which I cared for. Anyway, a group of Americans befriended me and for a while I thought they were genuine friends until one day they convinced me to go to a weekend event. It turned out to be a Christian missionary youth group event. I stayed through out the event and realized there were many others like me from various countries. Never once during my interactions with my 'friends' did they allude that they all belong to this missionary group. I politely told my 'friends' afterwards that I'd join their activities as usual but was not interested in attending any missionary related activities. Guess what! That was the last time I saw or spoke to any of them. I was dropped like a hot potato! Mind you, during this brief friendship they offered financial help after learning my monthly stipend was below poverty level by US standard (I worked two jobs in between classes and weekends to make ends meet). The tablighs, in my mind, were no better. Instead of being the source of strength and security for very young Malaysian student like me, they were hell bent on branding me as not Islamic enough to interact with. I will not share the details of my disgust. I guess if I wore batman-like hijab 3-tingkat and niqab, they would speak to me. Or if I were a man, the yardstick would be the Arab garb and serban.

camerlengo said...

Why use the qualifying adjective "moderate"?

Does it mean that there are "moderate" Muslims and "immoderate" Muslims?

Much like there are "moderate" and "immoderate" Christians, Hindus, Jews....?

How would one distinguish between the "moderate" and "immoderate" followers of any religion? By dress, morals, zeal, behavior or faithfulness in following doctrines, dogmas and scriptures?

Or by a genuine willingness to give-and-take as part of living in a multiracial, multi-religious environment?

Labels such as "moderate" and it's polar opposites are conveniently tossed around without people even bothering to think through what they mean.

And in so doing, their views are far too often hijacked or perverted by demagogues and racists who prey on the fears of the gullible and easily-influenced.

Anonymous said...

Negara Islam mana bole MAJU,,tanya CSLek!!!!

-LAN CAP-

Anonymous said...

The question is how sincere are a cult masquerading as a religion in toning down its obviously scatological agenda conceived by toilet brains on the imagined death of their saviour.

http://religion.blogs.cnn.com/2012/09/15/my-take-its-time-for-islamophobic-evangelicals-to-choose/

A cult that worships a man as some hippies-tic rastafarian equivalent or manifestation of the sacred cannot be taken seriously by the sane thinking people excepting the brain deformed or lobotomized zombie types for whom a simple question would suffice..why dint the hippie in throes of his own death, raise his bloodied head, stared wildeyed at the rabble below...and scream "abracadabra,a pox on you" and spit out a bolt of lightning that would have fried them evil bastards for good so that the world could live happily ever after and forever cleansed of the all the evil since pandora opened the box....hahahahaaha

It shows that even he on that cross who is claimed by his yobs as a living, breathing, eating ejaculating, shitting, fucking, masturbating whatever-ing manifestation of Logos was nothing more than a living, breathing, eating, ejaculating, shitting, fucking, masturbating whatever-ing piece of shit as alive and as palpable as you and me and a billion or so other hemmed in on a stray blue marble circling a yellow ball of fire in a sea of a billion sparkles interspersed by swamps of vacuum, black matter and what have you fashioned by the one and Only Allah azza wa jalla.

The whole crap, philosophy and cant behind this fuckedup talk of a three in one,(like some instant nescafe satchet or menage a trois session), a second cumming or Armageddon or Rapture blahblahblah sounds way too loony to be taken seriously. These Christo bin dippers had their moment of epiphany a millenium or so years ago at Nicea where they were confronted with the truth of unitarianism (Arius) and the crap of trinitarianism (Athanasius- add a S at the front and presto..Sathanasius...hahahahaha).

That they choose infamy not epiphany by embracing the latter at the expense of the former is their problem not the world's. But to impose one's collective madness on others is a madness of its own and me thinks these Christos are so inferiority complexed and mentally challenged that their saviour thought it better that he would rather slip into a comatose reverie about Mary Magdalene's loins and cum at the thought during his "last' moments of unstanched bleeding than deign raising his head and spit a bolt of lightning at his persecutors and transmogrify them into ash, thus effectively abandoning his sheep to scurry about in their wilderness forever more till "kingdom" cums.......

Warrior 231

camerlengo said...

"2 Malaysians held in Lebanon for alleged Al-Qaeda links"

"New terror cell planned four attacks"

The above are the headings of 2 reports in a regional newspaper today.

In the first report, a Lebanese newspaper published the names of the 2 Malaysians, as well as the name of the Malaysian who allegedly recruited them into Al-Qaeda.

In the second report, Indonesian police have arrested 11 suspected terrorists, including the cell leader, in raids in Madiun, Solo, Bogor and Cikaret.

The terror cell, Harakah Sunni Untuk Masyarakat Indonesia, planned attacks on the US Embassy in Jakarta, the US Consulate in Surabaya, the office of mining company Freeport in Jakarta and a police command center in Java.

So, are these individuals "misguided" or "immoderate"?

Incidentally, the second report quoted Mr Zuhairi Misrawi, chairman of the Moderate Muslim Society, as having said that "terror groups have further increased in number in Indonesia, and worryingly, Jakarta has become a battleground."

The "Moderate Muslim Society"? Does this mean that there are "moderate" Muslims and "immoderate" Muslims in Indonesia?

camerlengo said...

"2 Malaysians held in Lebanon for alleged Al-Qaeda links"

"New terror cell planned four attacks"

The above are the headings of 2 reports in a regional newspaper today.

In the first report, a Lebanese newspaper published the names of the 2 Malaysians, as well as the name of the Malaysian who allegedly recruited them into Al-Qaeda.

In the second report, Indonesian police have arrested 11 suspected terrorists, including the cell leader, in raids in Madiun, Solo, Bogor and Cikaret.

The terror cell, Harakah Sunni Untuk Masyarakat Indonesia, planned attacks on the US Embassy in Jakarta, the US Consulate in Surabaya, the office of mining company Freeport in Jakarta and a police command center in Java.

So, are these individuals "misguided" or "immoderate"?

Incidentally, the second report quoted Mr Zuhairi Misrawi, chairman of the Moderate Muslim Society, as having said that "terror groups have further increased in number in Indonesia, and worryingly, Jakarta has become a battleground."

The "Moderate Muslim Society"? Does this mean that there are "moderate" Muslims and "immoderate" Muslims in Indonesia?

Anonymous said...

Probleim is our Malay students yg tak matang pemikiran di hantar ke luar negeri mentah2. Our youth at age 19-20 are still childish sebab mak bapak over-protect sangat sampai ada yg tak reti naik bas/lrt, a simple basic thing pon tk reti buat.Mak bapak tak menyediakan for the world.Easy to be persuaded,get influenced kenapa org lain pula yg di salahkan?

Anonymous said...

camerlengo is confused, moderate vs extremist like those Muslim "terrorists"

camerlengo said...

Bru

It seems to me that warrior 231 has crossed the "line" with his post of 1:18 PM.

Do you view it as "fair comment" or as the ramblings of a mind that is hell bent on causing conflicts between Christians and Muslims?

It's time that you, as the owner of this blog, to take a stand on posts like these.

Anonymous said...

We know from your cut and paste inflammatory and asininely penile hand-jobs as to your real identity, Mr Camerlengo aka Jasper Bloodstone aka Skilgannon and many other similar arseoholic incarnations.

Goading the blog owner to ban me is another of your specialities as a certain Gaius the Dayus will testify from the Economics Malaysia blogspot.

It wont work and you would be better off putting that energy into jerking your flaccid cock to cum or in yer godforsaken case, lick Guano, Harry and Anwar's arses clean of shit before tony cocksuckling yerself to hell, babi. And pray tell us as you descend to meet your imagined Satan of a hippie, what is so much more fucking inflammatory about my post than some goddamn politico-bishop's plan to render Malaysia, a Christo hellhouse.Care to explain, filthy cuntmunching fiend?

What a cocksuckling, arselicking, whorecunt smooching and whorepiss guzzling son of a goddamn whore!!

Warrior 231

camerlengo said...

No worries. It's no skin off my nose anyways.

Like they say, it's boots on the ground.

Let history be the judge of whether your diseased ramblings come to pass.

No more, no less.

Anonymous said...

Diseased eh? Pundek shameless pig, suffering from multiple personaity disorder and delusion that he doesnt even know who is diseased!!

Engaging in transference eh? This is what happens when you fuck your mother's filthy unwashed arsehole. Clean up that shitstained cock of yours and give that droopy titted, camelhumped, potbellied, worm cunted postmenopausal whore a good fuck the right way, as just desserts for birthing a pundek kalathai chakiliyan porikee tiuniamah son a bitch like you!

What a wasted drop of diseased sperm?

Now get into those boot and ram yer papa's cock for spilling diseased ejaculate over some filthy sow's cunt in his cockhungry drunk moment all those years ago. I am sure the bedlam in yer cheap rundown HDB flat in Hougang will be earsplitting....hahaahhahahahahaha

Warrior 231

Anonymous said...

Warrior,
Sure cant beat that cult worshiping a narcissistic- warring,womanising, paedophile- schizo :)

Mitt wear Magic Underwear said...

Bro, beware Christianity is back in fashion. And you know what that means. Inquisition,colonialism, exorcism, draculas etc.

Christianity has been the baned of Western/European lives. The Catholic Monarchy used their subjects to kill people all over the world for God, King and the Kingdom of Christ.

The Catholics were here in 1511 killing Malays and Malay Sultanates.

It is only when the European plebs could not stand their cruelty that they guillotine the Empress, King or shot them as in Russia.

Moderate Muslim is an oxymoron. We must be secular like Turkey or else we will be submitting budget to Allah every year.

Beware if Mitt Romney become the President of the US. He is a Christian Mormon and he sleep in a magic underwear. You read that right. Magic underwear and many wives.

Yes superstition is back in fashion even in highly tech country like the US.

The arabs are again bound to be killed in another US war with Iran.

So we must kill of superstitious religion like Christianity before it disrupts our lives here in peaceful Malaysia.

We can turn into Phillipines in a second if the Catholic become stronger as the bishops are praying for a Christian PM as reported by many bloggers.

Helen Ang reports nearly 20 MP in Parliament are fundamentalist Christians fanatics.

The Star editorial consist of Sidang Injil with only one Malay. So they have the pulse on the media spin as well.

camerlengo said...

Heh, heh

The emotings of the warrior grow stronger.

It's pathetic in a way - this constant plea for a discredited agenda.

But, he doesn't know it's discredited. More's the pity!