Thursday, July 22, 2010

Doing a number with numbers: 1,805 died in custody in Malaysia, 2003-2009?

All wild accusations, says Hishammuddin

KUALA LUMPUR: Home Affairs Minister Datuk Seri Hishammuddin Hussein had lambasted certain quarters for exaggerating statistics related to custodial deaths in the country and for creating a perception many detainees had died in the hands of authorities.
“People have been quoting all kinds of figures (of custodial deaths). But, they're not true,” said Hishammuddin in Parliament last week.
A memorial service organised by non-governmental organisation, Saya Anak Bangsa Malaysia was held last Friday as a tribute to those who had died in custody. According to the movement’s blog site, 1,805 people died in detention from 2003 until 2009.
The figure was disputed by Hishammuddin but he did not say what the exact figure was. “I’m not so sure. But, from what I was told the other day, the figures being bandied about were for custodial deaths over a period of 10 years. So, it isn’t much.
“I was also informed by Chee Leong (Deputy Home Minister Datuk Lee Chee Leong) the majority of the cases of deaths in custody were due to diseases such as AIDS.
“They are free to raise the issue all they want, but at the end of the day, the truth will prevail.”
Haris Ibrahim, lawyer and leader of Saya Anak Bangsa Malaysia party, claimed 1,805 lives perished in our remand cells, prisons and detention centres between 2003 and 16th July, last year. It was written as a statement of fact. He did not attribute it to anyone. Read what he wrote in his blog here and what he told The Malay Mail here.

Hishammuddin Hussein, Home Minister, is "not sure" of the exact figure but rubbished Haris Ibrahim and SABM's numbers.

If both Hs had checked with the police before speaking to the Malay Mail this morning, they would have discovered that there were 147 deaths in custody from May 2000 to date:

2000 - 7 deaths
2001 - 16
2002 - 15
2003 - 23
2004 - 21
2005 - 14
2006 - 15
2007 - 15
2008 - 12
2009 - 6
2010 - 3

Causees of death:
HIV 32
Athma  4
Heart attacks 9
Other illnesses 64
Suicide 21
Fights with other detainees 3
Brain hemorrhage 3
Fall1
Beaten up by police 1

In my column in The Malay Mail today, I wrote that the SABM's figure is questionable. Even Haris is not so sure of it now as he asked The MM:
“Let’s say the figures are wrong and it is only 15. Should we still not be concerned over 15 custodial deaths?”
I happened to agree with him. But, really, we can't just throw any figure we like. One of the reasons why Haris does not trust the mainstream media and has called for a boycott (see his poster below) is because some of us can't count, he'd complain - The Start would report a turnout of 1000 people at an anti-government protest when it was actually 10,000 people, for example.

In the same spirit, Haris needs to get his numbers right.


In my article Doing A Number with Numbers, I wrote
On the other hand, according to official statistics provided by ouir Home Ministry, 147 people have died in police custoiry in the last 10 years since May 2000. For 2010, the number of deaths in police custory so far is three. The highest in a year is 23 (2003). It's not a sterling record but certainly nowhere near the claim by SABM of 1,805 deaths in half that period.  Which makes one wonder: what kind of number are the people behind SABM trying to do, and on whom? Where did they get their statistics, anyway?
I also drew a comparion with the US' global "war on terror", where "nearly 100 detainees have died while in the hands of US officials .... between August 2002 and 2006. At least a third of them were victims of homicide and torture. Others succumbed to accidents, illnesses and harsh conditions of the detention centres.


A couple of bloggers have beaten me to it, actually.
1. Shamsul Yunos
Prominent human rights lawyer, Haris Ibrahim caught dealing inimaginary numbers

2. Zakhir Mohamad
What is the color of the sky in Haris Ibrahim's world?

34 comments:

Anonymous said...

belajar tinggi2 ingatkan boleh jadi manusia berguna...

lawyers are stupid after all. no wonder they charged exorbitant fees...

CommonerNinetyNine said...

it has never been about whether those figures, cases, personalities ... etc raised by that "other side" are correct or not, it is all about planting negative perceptions onto people for their political agenda.

that's why mostly they don't even bother to show prove to sustain their allegations. what's the worst to them if caught claims are wrong? just say sources mistaken! in your case where the so called lawyer said is "... even if the figures are wrong ..."! they still get away as always!

come on, how many times they play this kind of political tricks? still surprise?

the thing is that the current administration never learn, instead of gathering information to verify allegations and counter claims if allegations are wrong, they simply go public and bark, like the mr home minister. it is a shame to say something like we don't know but they are wrong! what would the public see? not doing home work, stupidity, or worst, cover-up!?

if proves are shown to counter allegations, situation may be different, at least public see minister know what they are doing and give them the benefit of doubt.

the fact is public like scandalous stuff, that's why tabloids sell. and the current administration never learn and want to be better, that's why that "other side" will keep throwing allegations like this and public will keep buying these stuff because of the incompetencies of the administration.

Anonymous said...

Sdr Rocky,

"You shall not accept any information, unless you verify it for yourself. I have given you the hearing, the eyesight, and the brain, and you are responsible for using them" Surah 17:36

Maybe Haris did NOT do a proper due diligence on this figure. Can we make a small start : can Haris at least tell us where he got the information that 1800 over people died in Police custody?


Did he get it from his own research? From his friends? From the Police? From his friends in the Court system? Where did Haris get this figure? That would be a simple way to get to the bottom of this.

Anonymous said...

Expecting a fuckedup arsehole lawyer(which happens to almost rhyme with liar)to be scruplous is akin to begging the sperm that spawned David Punkimak Pundekalathaimuthu to swim in the reverse direction away from his momma's last rotten egg. The word 'shyster' springs to mind when we are confronted by a mind disfigured sicko like this.

Arsetonguing, cocksuckling, twatmunching bastards have the same uncanny modus operandi: hedgingly float a bogus claim in order to get the real deal and start moral grandstanding about it. And so it happened for the umpteen time and the morality play begins its run. Probably, the police, wiser to this ruse, dismisively shooed away this mouthcocked dickjuicing clitlice as some toddydrunk crackpot and miffed, he tried to raise the ante with his "Killing Prisons" scenario that will render Pol Pot a pussycat.

Anyway, a sober analysis of the police figures show an average death rate (147/10) of approximately 14.7 custodial deaths per annum. For comparison, the Australian average police custodial deaths spanning 20 years (1980-2000), for instance, was; 476 (M) + 38(F) = 514/20 = approx. 25.7 per annum. source:http://www.aic.gov.au/publications/current%20series/tandi/221-240/tandi238/view%20paper.aspx

Public grandstanding and shit stirring with lies has become a favie modus operandi of hired cuntlicking shysters in the PR ranks. The public are practically fed-up of these road porikees who without any work on their hands are veritable devils workshops, fantasising Jolie while desperately trying to jerk their dead pecker into life with a mug of toddy at ready to drown the inevitable sorrow of lost manhood.

Hisham and co should just ignore these ranting toddyholics and let them jerk to death rather than letting Sadomasochistic Arsebuggering Bastard Morons (SABMs) seize the agenda for their 15 minute arseWarholian fix. I bet without the attention they will turn to something else.....

Maybe with Madame Zora now dead, about time for shyster to find a dirty spot on the fivefoot way, strip his pants and underwear off, tack a set of real numbers from 1-3(with the reverse divining PR's future) on his flaccid pecker and get his pet parakeet to peck one off for passersby while he spews bettlejuice in every direction like a madarse as he lolls about like a mentally challenged mangy mongrel in his toddy/cheap samsu induced stupor. What a total waste of pseudo-Malay sperm and pallan Chakkiliyar egg. P & L must be pretty bad in that household!

P/S:http://www.thefreedictionary.com/shyster

Warrior 231

Anonymous said...

Dato Rocky,

Saya keliru sikit, sejak bila ada BANGSA Malaysia? Is this a newly discovered DNA species?

PERWIRA

wakmempelam said...

Yang Berbahagia Dato,

Adakah benar harga gula terpaksa dinaikkan supaya boleh bayar APCO untuk spin cerita untuk UMNO iaitu polisi Satu Malaysia = Satu Israel?

Anonymous said...

Rocky, bole pinjem rm10, nake behli kahki aiyam. Bole ke dahtoke? Anu lahpar, pehdule apo, begapo orge mahte ditangeh pohles.

Anonymous said...

Well, Harris achieved his malicious intent.

Foolish supporters will believe him, and his next line would probably be : "Now that I have your attention, here's the crap"....

A GOOD MAN DOES NOTHING.

mohamed said...

#Did he get it from his own research? From his friends? From the Police? From his friends in the Court system? Where did Haris get this figure? That would be a simple way to get to the bottom of this.# Anon 5:01PM

Very good questions. Now who is going to see it through?

Anonymous said...

From what I have read, from his statement to the Malay Mail, he is quoting Suaram from a forum.

SABM is no longer neutral. It is definitely moving towards a political party, as they advocate anti BN and UMNO, MCA, MIC, and anything that is part of the3 government.

It started of on good footing pre election, when the SABM movement went to Penang. From then on, it has been downhill. The key players in SABM are anti establishment, claiming to register voters but spew up anti establishment messages, then claim that they are registering voters to make the difference.

Pre Permatang Pauh by elections, Haris and a few other Pakatan bloggers had a meeting with key PKR officials to strategise.

although it claims to be 'civil', the fact is there is nothing civil about it.

Geng Makan Padi

Anonymous said...

Even the figures may differ have a heart for those who died in the hands of the law. I suppose Rocky may not have a friend or love one in those numbers so he is calling a bluff. Wait one of this days it will be one of them your very own then we shall see.

Anonymous said...

you believe the police ???

and our home minister doesn't know???

and the cow jumped over the moon!!!

Anonymous said...

Banyak lawyer diluar sana. Tapi macam-macam quality.Ada lawyer agreement ,ada lawyer tipu pelanggan, ada kerani dia jadi lawyer dan ada pula yang menipu dia ada degree untuk practice.

Dalam banyak-banyak lawyer , lawyer Melayu lah yang paling teruk sekali.

Anonymous said...

Nombor dapat dari kubur cina, 1805 esok beli 4D, ha ha ha.

Ahirudin Bin Attan said...

Dato Rocky,

Saya keliru sikit, sejak bila ada BANGSA Malaysia? Is this a newly discovered DNA species?

PERWIRA

7:10 PM
==================

Sdr Perwira,

Arwah Usman Awang dalam cerpen2nya ada menceritakan bagaimana anak2 muda pra-Merdeka jua mencari-cari dan mengejar suatu "bangsa Malaya". Sampai sekarang, dah lebih setengah abad, kita tak dapat memupuk suatu bangsa Malaya atau Malaysia. Di Indonesia dan di Thailand, bangsa2 minoriti sanggup tukar nama untuk menjayakan identiti bangsa Indonesia atau bangsa Siam/Thai, tapi di Malaya dan kemudian Malaysia, orang berbangsa Cina dan India mau identiti mereka sendiri dikekalkan. Bagi saya, itu lebih afdal. Rakyat Malaysia bangsa Cina/Melayu/India/dll ...

Tapi ada juga orang keturunan India, atau DKK, yang jadi Melayu. Contoh Nor Mohamed Yakcop. Jadi NMY ialah seorang warga Malaysia berbangsa Melayu berketurunan India..

Begitulah adanya.

Anonymous said...

next, he's going to say that the immigration dept actually throwing 18,743 PATIs to the pacific ocean instead of deporting back to where they belong.

Anonymous said...

Please refer to "Who let the dogs out?" from The people's Parliament blog and take up Haris Ibrahim's challenge about the number game.

I bet you will have your tails between the legs.

By the way, most Malaysian have very poor command of English and definitely no better in English comprehension.

- Observer

Jason said...

The advocate of the sky kingdom, the liar in question, is in fact a liar. He even defended his arguments, in which he used to campaign that mainstream medias are rubbish, with exactly one, quoting an article from The Star and still, he got it wrong... hahahahaha.... the numbers were given to him by the heavens, probably. He then, spins out arguments from other bloggers, whom were just trying to understand how did he got his figures, some even agreed that it is an issue, but not the numbers. And what is this about quoting mainstream medias? Selective understanding disorder, compulsive liar and desperately needing attention, I think, are the perfect description for such a person.

LibangLibu said...

butoh la rocky

Chicken Feet aka KaKiaYam said...

Rocky,

http://thestar.com.my/news/story.asp?file=/2009/3/24/parliament/3539996&sec=parliament

The issue is custodial deaths and how significant it is.... but instead of seeing the subject as it is, you chose to see this as an oppurtunity to discredit Haris Ibrahim... now i have seen how wayward you have become...


"Di Indonesia dan di Thailand, bangsa2 minoriti sanggup tukar nama untuk menjayakan identiti bangsa Indonesia atau bangsa Siam/Thai, tapi di Malaya dan kemudian Malaysia, orang berbangsa Cina dan India mau identiti mereka sendiri dikekalkan."

I read MM because it is free, and now i know why is it so, with an editor that has such a shallow thinking, there isn't much quality in MM....

Remember southern Thailand unrest? So what have the changed name help? Remember the hundreds who died in the lorries? Go and make a trip to Chiangmai and then to Haadyai, and see how different they are and how they see each other....

Satu Indonesia? Are you dreaming? Didn't you know that the name changed is, to a certain extent force upon it's citizen? Less than 15 years ago, they are not even allowed to learn mother tongue languages! To learn Mandarin, they have to hire private teachers and do so secretively! And what about all the race riot in Jakarta? Acheh, remember?

Somehow, I feel you have all these facts at your fingertips, but again, you choose to ignore these for reasons best known to yourself...

KaKiaYam

Anonymous said...

Its pretty obvious that this whole article is a spin and a hogwash by Rocky and his 2 dogs trying to do a magic show and fool you fools who lapped it up like pariah dogs with no breeding nor brains to know the difference. Haris is a seasoned lawyer, where any lawyer worth his salt knows from day 1...always have evidence before you open your mouth...You guys must be real real dumb to think otherwise...shame on you

Anonymous said...

So what all of you meant was the figure is very small only. SO it's not a problem. Now I understand.

Anonymous said...

Jing Jing Jeng!!

http://thestar.com.my/news/story.asp?file=/2009/3/24/parliament/3539996&sec=parliament

2,571 detainees died in past nine years


A TOTAL of 2,571 detainees died of various diseases while being held in the country’s prisons, rehabilitation centres and illegal immigrant detention depots between 1999 and 2008, Home Minister Datuk Seri Syed Hamid Albar said.

So its not 1805, but 2571. If Albar is to be believed.

Yep Haris was numbering the numbers.. too low to be exact. Jajajaja!

Jaxx

eddy said...

While some people will happily spin and make excuses all day long for being wrong.

I think it takes a really genuinely brave person to admit that he is wrong.

Anonymous said...

Rocky Bru
How do ya do?
Nor Mohamad Yakcop tu
Sah Melayu.

Check IC
Ade Bin something.
Mukin gelap sikit
Tapi depa
Sama Rumpun dgn U.

Ha ha ha ha
Hu hu hu hu
Rocky Bru.
U dgn Nor Mohammed Yakcop
Sama sama
Melayu
It is true
heheh hehhe heheh

By Pinky wit additional vocals from Fat Lady and Jho Low.

Praxis said...

So, the annual death rate in police custody is 0.1-14.7 per 30,000,000 people which is certainly a lot lower than risks of Mr Harris Salleh dying of violent crime in the streets or the risks of a policeman dying in the course of his duty, or risks of me dying from Mr Harris Salleh's imaginary numbers. I don't want to extrapolate further.

Old Fart said...

So you think you can count!! Your 147 number given by Home Ministry and you'd bet your life on that number!! From the Home ministry. come on Rocky surely you were not writing that after your 10th!!

Anonymous said...

Jaxx,

"A TOTAL of 2,571 detainees [b]died of various diseases while being held[/b] in the country’s prisons, rehabilitation centres and illegal immigrant detention depots between 1999 and 2008, Home Minister Datuk Seri Syed Hamid Albar said."


[b]FUCKING READ THE ARTICLE PROPERLY[/B]

Boss Coffee

Anonymous said...

MALAYSIA IS AN APATHEID COUNTRY.
REBUT IF YOU WILL

Anonymous said...

lawyers - a profession that was said to defend the rights of people. what a bunch of liars, despicable liars. the lawyers wants openness, that we can compete fairly among one another, to reject bribes and corruption, but what did they do? they group up and form a union..then device something called sro.. and blamed the sro whenever the man on the street ask for legal fees discount. they themselves dont believe in free enterprise...but they want all the rest in the world to adhere to their guidelines... what a load of crap...

ross

Anonymous said...

Dato Rocky,

I keliru satu lagi nak tanya sikit...

Pasai apa bila siPolan/Apek/Aney yang kuat kelentong, orang akan guna peribahasa si "Lawyer Buruk?"

Ada kaitan dengan profession Lawyer ker?

PERWIRA

Ahirudin Bin Attan said...

Old Fart wrote:

So you think you can count!! Your 147 number given by Home Ministry and you'd bet your life on that number!! From the Home ministry. come on Rocky surely you were not writing that after your 10th!!

5:15 PM

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

Ah Old Fart, I was beginning to think that no friend of Haris' was going to come out openly to defend him! I'm quite happy you did. Even though, Old Fart is an Anon, I know who you are so you count!

You've read Haris Ibrahim's 4 postings? He still has not explained where he got the 1805. Aren't you curious, mate? He quoted the Star, the paper he's been deriding the last 3 years! Is that going to help explain the numbers? Nah.

All Haris can do is make personal attacks. Go read his postings again, Old Fart. "Umno is not interested in the truth," he wrote, "Neither are their cybertroopers". If Big Dog and Shamsul Yunus aren't interested in the truth, they wouldn't have dug up the 147 numbers. (And they are still doing some digging, I'm told, because they are interested in the truth).

I'll wait for Haris' 5th posting. Maybe he will let us know how he arrive at the "truth" of his 1805.

Cheers.

Anonymous said...

Spin Cocky spin

Anonymous said...

Anonymous said...
lawyers - a profession that was said to defend the rights of people. what a bunch of liars, despicable liars. the lawyers wants openness, that we can compete fairly among one another, to reject bribes and corruption, but what did they do? they group up and form a union..then device something called sro.. and blamed the sro whenever the man on the street ask for legal fees discount. they themselves dont believe in free enterprise...but they want all the rest in the world to adhere to their guidelines... what a load of crap...

ross


Hi Ross who obviosly doesnt have enough brain power to light a bulb, let me ask you if you can ask a doctor for a discount? Try that and see... stupidity is infinite