Thursday, May 31, 2007

Losing my Religion


updates 1 June, 1800hrs

Pak Lah has asked the people to accept the decision on Lina Joy with an open mind and not be overcome by emotions. He said his government did not influence the court.
"That is the decision of the court; I don't question them," the PM said yesterday. Read the Bernama report here.
Our blogosphere continues to resonate with talk about the decision. Zewt has refused to blog about it here and still gets over 30 comments for the posting.
Read also:
Kata Tak Nak [It must not be legal]
Abdul Jalil Backer [Lina Joy ikon mencabar perlembagaan Malaysia]
Nuraina A. Samad [Conversations: How come you're not blogging about Lina Joy...?]
and various takes by Haris Ibrahim [here, here and here]

Lina Joy and the Deed Poll.
Until the Eighties, what you needed to do to convert to another religion was to adevertise a "Deed Poll" in the local newspapers and declare that you, Mohd So-and-So, had renounced your religion and did not wish to be known as Mohd So-and-So as your Christian name now was Mr So-and-So.
After that, you go to the NRD with the cutting of your "Deed Poll" and get your ID amended accordingly.
Then the religious authorities told newspapers that they must get Perkim's consent before publishing any "Deed Poll" advertisements. As far as the experts I spoke to were concerned, no consent was ever given.
If we could go back to the "Deed Poll" days, perhaps life for the Lina Joys - and everybody else - would have been simpler.

Read also:
A Voice (Interfaith issues .. Gimme a Break!)
Elizabeth Wong (Realpolitik behind Lina Joy decision)
Walski (Lina Joy loses her appeal) and (Joy Overload)
Big Dog (No one can embrace or leave religion as one fancies)
Marina Mahathir (Do we believe in the Quran?)
Shar101 (Lina Joy: The aftermath)


79 comments:

Anonymous said...

haha! can't help it la bro .. this deep poll thingy can help nst up its revenue a bit too!!!

Anonymous said...

No human rights in this Boleh land, sad to know so many in Boleh has primitive thinking.

Anonymous said...

Even if you have that deed poll that would not be the end of the story. Don't count on it. Times have changed.

When your time is up, the authorities could still come and claim your body for a muslim farewell. What can you do? Remember Moorthy?

bergen said...

This is between her and the NRD. It's her personal case. But the attention is has gotten is simply amazing.

bergen said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Anonymous said...

Sedih membaca komen MM: Do we believe in the Quran. Amat setuju dengan tulisan bakaq aka penarik beca. As to MM, please, please, please learn more about her religion. This is not her first confusing statement/article about Islam. Please don't write about Islam if unsure or not knowledgeable enough. I think her father understands better. That is why during TDM time, he had the Constitution amended to include an additional clause, namely Article 121(1)(A), which states that the civil court has no jurisdiction on syariah matters.

Wassalam

pollyneedsacracker said...

Interesting.

I remember watching an Al Jazera programme recently on Muslim converts in Malaysia and it's sad that while Sisters In Islam viewed it as a breach of fundamental rights, a law lecturer from UIAM said the Malaysian constitution on freedom of religion cannot be taken literaly.

For once Nazri said something right..and i quote "What is the point of keeping a person a Muslim if they no longer believed in the faith and made that publicly known?”

-The Man Who Sold The World-

mustang said...

My sympathy is with Lina Joy for not being able to make the changes to her IC.
I also see some ready Islam-bashing from the start of her case.
We must be blind to not see certain parties taking advantage of her case in the name of human rights and the constitution.
I wish for some solution for Lina. But those fighting for her must stay focused and not use this platform to bash Islam.

Taufiq Khalid said...

Is it a question of faith? Or is it a question of face? One wonders about these sort of things.

FK said...

the majority's reasoning is making a mockery of lina joy's civil liberties n an insult to everybody’s (including the judge’s own) intelligence.

they ask lina joy to go to shariah court, but that's like asking her to go BANG HER HEAD on the shariah court's walls, bcos THAT is a deadend.

read the following shariah legislation PENALIZING any act or words of apostasy. so, before u can even get your application heard, u r ALREADY fined and locked up in 'pusat bimbingan'.

-----------------------

Melaka
http://www.esyariah.gov.my/portal/page?_pageid=185,79674&_dad=portal2&_schema=PORTAL2

ENAKMEN KESALAHAN SYARIAH ( NEGERI MELAKA ) 1991
6/1991
Bahagian BAHAGIAN IV KESALAHAN - KESALAHAN LAIN
Bab

Seksyen 66 - Percubaan murtad.

(1) Apabila seseorang Islam dengan sengaja, sama ada dengan perbuatan atau perkataan atau dengan cara apa jua pun, mengaku hendak keluar dari Agama Islam atau mengisytiharkan dirinya sebagai orang yang bukan Islam, Mahkamah hendaklah, jika berpuashati bahawa seseorang itu telah melakukan sesuatu yang boleh ditafsirkan telah cuba menukarkan iktikad dan kepercayaan Agama Islam sama ada dengan pengakuan atau perbuatannya sendiri, memerintahkan orang itu supaya ditahan di Pusat Bimbingan Islam untuk tempoh tidak melebihi enam bulan dengan tujuan pendidikan dan orang itu diminta bertaubat mengikut hukum syarak.

(2) Jika seseorang yang telah diperintahkan supaya ditahan di bawah subseksyen (1)-

(a) bertaubat dengan serta-merta, Mahkamah hendaklah, setelah mengesahkan taubatnya itu, membebaskan orang tersebut; atau

(b) jika orang itu pada bila-bila masa semasa dalam tahanan telah bertaubat, Pegawai Penjaga hendaklah melaporkan perkara itu kepada Mahkamah dan Mahkamah hendaklah memanggil orang itu dan setelah mengesahkan taubatnya itu, hendaklah membuat satu perintah untuk membebaskannya.

(3) Pegawai Penjaga hendaklah menyerahkan satu laporan kemajuan berhubung dengan orang yang ditahan itu kepada Mahkamah pada setiap minggu.

(4) Pusat Bimbingan Islam hendaklah diwartakan sebagai Pusat Tahanan di dalam Warta.

Perak
http://www.esyariah.gov.my/portal/page?_pageid=185,79653&_dad=portal2&_schema=PORTAL2

ENAKMEN JENAYAH (SYARIAH) 1992
3/1992
Bahagian BAHAGIAN IV KESALAHAN BERHUBUNGAN DENGAN MARUAH AGAMA DAN INSTITUSINYA
Bab

Seksyen 13 - Perbuatan atau perkataan murtad.
Seseorang Islam yang dengan sengaja, sama ada dengan perbuatan atau perkataan atau dengan cara apa jua pun, mengaku hendak keluar daripada Agama Islam atau mengisytiharkan dirinya sebagai orang yang bukan Islam adalah melakukan suatu kesalahan mempersendakan Agama Islam dan hendaklah, apabila disabitkan, dikenakan hukuman denda tidak melebihi tiga ribu ringgit atau penjara selama tempoh tidak melebihi dua tahun atau kedua-duanya.

Terengganu
http://www2.esyariah.gov.my/esyariah/mal/portalv1/undangbm.nsf/maintrg/DDEEE5F6293AF1FC48256F85000279D3?OpenDocument

ENAKMEN KESALAHAN JENAYAH SYARIAH (TAKZIR) (TERENGGANU) 2001
7/2001
Bahagian BAHAGIAN II KESALAHAN YANG BERHUBUNGAN DENGAN ‘AQIDAH
Bab

Seksyen 38 - Takfir.
(1) Tertakluk kepada subseksyen (2), mana-mana orang yang mengatakan atau menohmahkan dengan perkataan, sama ada secara lisan atau bertulis, atau dengan isyarat atau gambaran tampak, atau dengan apa-apa perbuatan, aktiviti atau perlakuan, atau dengan menganjurkan, menaja atau membuat perkiraan bagi apa-apa aktiviti atau selainnya dengan apa-apa cara, bahawa mana-mana orang yang menganut agama Islam atau orang yang tergolong dalam apa-apa kumpulan, golongan atau perihalan orang yang menganut agama Islam-
(a) adalah kafir;
(b) tidak lagi menganut agama Islam;
(c) tidak sepatutnya diterima, atau tidak boleh diterima, sebagai menganuti agama Islam; atau
(d) tidak mempercayai, mengikuti, menganuti atau tergolong dalam, agama Islam,
adalah melakukan suatu kesalahan dan apabila disabitkan boleh didenda tidak melebihi lima ribu ringgit atau dipenjarakan selama tempoh tidak melebihi tiga tahun atau kedua-duanya.

(2) Subseksyen (1) tidaklah terpakai bagi-
(a) apa-apa jua yang dilakukan oleh mana-mana Mahkamah atau pihak berkuasa agama yang ditubuhkan, dibentuk atau dilantik oleh atau di bawah mana-mana undang-undang bertulis dan yang diberi kuasa untuk membuat atau mengeluarkan apa-apa keputusan mengenai apa-apa perkara yang berhubungan dengan agama Islam; dan
(b) apa-apa jua yang dilakukan oleh mana-mana orang menurut atau mengikut apa-apa keputusan yang dibuat atau dikeluarkan oleh Mahkamah atau pihak berkuasa sedemikian, sama ada atau tidak keputusan itu adalah secara bertulis atau jika bertulis, sama ada atau tidak ia disiarkan dalam Warta.

Selangor
http://www.esyariah.gov.my/portal/page?_pageid=185,79639&_dad=portal2&_schema=PORTAL2

ENAKMEN JENAYAH SYARIAH (SELANGOR) 1995
9/1995
Bahagian BAHAGIAN II KESALAHAN YANG BERHUBUNGAN DENGAN ‘AQIDAH
Bab

Seksyen 6 - Takfir.
(1) Tertakluk kepada subseksyen (2), seseorang yang mengatakan atau mengaitkan melalui kata-kata, sama ada secara lisan atau tulisan, atau dengan isyarat, atau dengan gambaran tampak, atau dengan apa-apa perbuatan, kegiatan atau kelakuan, atau dengan mengelolakan, menganjurkan atau mengaturkan apa-apa kegiatan, atau selainnya dengan apa-apa jua cara, bahawa mana-mana orang yang menganuti agama Islam, atau orang-orang yang tergolong dalam mana-mana kumpulan, kelas atau perihalan orang yang menganuti agama Islam-
(a) adalah orang kafir;
(b) telah berhenti menganuti agama Islam;
(c) tidak patut diterima, atau tidak dapat diterima sebagai menganuti agama Islam; atau
(d) tidak mempercayai, mengikuti, menganuti atau tergolong dalam agama Islam,
adalah melakukan suatu kesalahan dan apabila disabitkan boleh didenda tidak melebihi lima ribu ringgit atau dipenjarakan selama tempoh tidak melebihi tiga tahun atau kedua-duanya.

(2) Subseksyen (1) tidaklah terpakai bagi-
(a) apa-apa jua yang dilakukan oleh mana-mana Mahkamah atau pihak berkuasa agama yang ditubuhkan, dibentuk atau dilantik melalui atau di bawah mana-mana undang-undang bertulis dan yang diberi oleh undang-undang bertulis kuasa untuk memberikan atau mengeluarkan apa-apa fatwa atau keputusan tentang apa-apa perkara mengenai agama Islam; atau
(b) apa-apa jua yang dilakukan oleh mana-mana orang menurut atau mengikut apa-apa fatwa atau keputusan yang diberikan atau dikeluarkan oleh Mahkamah atau pihak berkuasa agama itu, sama ada atau tidak fatwa atau keputusan itu adalah secara bertulis atau, jika bertulis, sama ada atau tidak disiarkan dalam Warta.

Johor
http://www.esyariah.gov.my/portal/page?_pageid=185,79709&_dad=portal2&_schema=PORTAL2

ENAKMEN KESALAHAN JENAYAH SYARIAH 1997
4/1997
Bahagian BAHAGIAN V KESALAHAN PELBAGAI
Bab

Seksyen 31 - Takfir.
(1) Tertakluk kepada subseksyen (2), mana-mana orang yang mengatakan atau menohmahkan dengan perkataan, sama ada secara lisan atau bertulis, atau dengan isyarat atau gambaran tampak, atau dengan apa-apa perbuatan, aktiviti atau pelakuan, atau dengan menganjurkan, menaja atau membuat perkiraan bagi apa-apa aktiviti atau selainnya dengan apa-apa cara, bahawa mana-mana orang yang menganut agama Islam atau orang yang tergolong dalam apa-apa kumpulan, golongan atau perihalan orang yang menganut agama Islam-
(a) adalah kafir;
(b) tidak lagi menganut agama Islam;
(c) tidak sepatutnya diterima, atau tidak boleh diterima, sebagai menganuti agama Islam; atau
(d) tidak mempercayai, mengikuti, menganuti, atau tergolong dalam, agama Islam,

adalah melakukan suatu kesalahan dan apabila disabitkan boleh didenda tidak melebihi lima ribu ringgit atau dipenjarakan selama tempoh tidak melebihi tiga tahun atau kedua-duanya.
(2) Subseksyen (1) tidaklah terpakai bagi-
(a) apa-apa jua yang dilakukan oleh mana-mana Mahkamah atau pihak berkuasa agama yang ditubuhkan, dibentuk atau dilantik oleh atau di bawah mana-mana undang-undang bertulis dan yang diberikan kuasa untuk membuat atau mengeluarkan apa-apa keputusan mengenai apa-apa perkara yang berhubungan dengan agama Islam; dan
(b) apa-apa jua yang dilakukan oleh mana-mana orang menurut atau mengikut apa-apa keputusan yang dibuat atau dikeluarkan oleh Mahkamah atau pihak berkuasa sedemikian, sama ada atau tidak keputusan itu adalah secara bertulis atau, jika bertulis, sama ada atau tidak ia disiarkan dalam Warta.

Kedah
http://www.esyariah.gov.my/portal/page?_pageid=185,79716&_dad=portal2&_schema=PORTAL2

ENAKMEN KANUN JENAYAH SYARIAH 1988
9/1988
Bahagian BAHAGIAN II KESALAHAN-KESALAHAN
Bab

Seksyen 24 - Takfir.

(1) Mana-mana orang yang mengatakan atau mengaitkan melalui kata-kata, sama ada bertutur atau tulisan, atau melalui isyarat, atau melalui gambaran yang boleh dilihat atau melalui apa-apa perbuatan, kegiatan atau kelakuan, atau dengan mengelola, menggalak atau memperaturkan apa-apa kegiatan, atau selainnya dengan apa jua cara, bahawa mana-mana orang yang menganuti Agama Islam, atau orang-orang yang tergolong dalam mana-mana kumpulan, kelas atau perihalan orang-orang yang menganuti Agama Islam :
(i) adalah orang kafir, atau
(ii) telah berhenti menganuti Agama Islam, atau
(iii) tidak patut diterima, atau tidak dapat diterima, sebagai menganuti Agama Islam, atau
(iv) tidak mempercayai, mengikuti, menganuti, atau tergolong dalam Agama Islam,
adalah bersalah atas suatu kesalahan dan boleh, apabila disabitkan, dikenakan hukuman denda tidak melebihi lima ribu ringgit atau dikenakan hukuman penjara selama tempoh tidak melebihi tiga tahun atau kedua-duanya :

Dengan syarat bahawa seksyen ini tidak boleh dipakai bagi:
(a) apa-apa perkara yang dilakukan oleh mana-mana pihak berkuasa Agama yang ditubuhkan, dibentuk atau dilantik oleh atau di bawah mana-mana Undang-undang bertulis dan yang diberikan oleh Undang-undang bertulis dengan kuasa memberi atau mengeluarkan apa-apa fatwa atau keputusan atau apa-apa perkara mengenai Agama Islam;
(b) apa-apa perkara yang dilakukan oleh mana-mana orang menurut atau mengikut apa-apa fatwa atau keputusan yang diberi atau dikeluarkan oleh pihak berkuasa Agama itu, sama ada fatwa atau keputusan itu adalah secara bertulis ataupun tidak, atau jika secara bertulis, sama ada ianya disiarkan dalam Warta ataupun tidak.

(2) Mana-mana orang yang mentafsir secara menyeleweng mana-mana fatwa yang dikeluarkan oleh pihak berkuasa Agama adalah melakukan suatu kesalahan dan boleh, apabila disabitkan, dikenakan hukuman denda tidak melebihi lima ribu ringgit atau dikenakan hukuman penjara selama tempoh tidak melebihi tiga tahun atau kedua-duanya.

macam macam boleh said...

The court decision stinks!!!!!

macam macam boleh said...

The court decision stinks!!!!!

XMM said...

I agree with Mustang, the case is pure an administrative matter between Lina and NRD, it has nothing to do with Islam.
It would be helpful if those fighting for her case were to remain focused on the issue at hand, namely the difficulty in making a data change on the NRD's records and what role the religious departments have to play in the process.
It may be that the process is slow and it should be as it involves faith and religion, I understand why they would want to make doubly sure that the person intending to convert is not beign misled into something they do not fully understand.
and as for Marina Mahathir, please don't feel so sure about everything you write, sometimes you just have to admit that you may not know much about something, Islam is easy to understand but very difficult to master all its nuances

thank you

BigDogDotCom said...

I agree with Mustang.

Some of the pro Article 11 people literally showed their Kurang Ajarness and arrogance in this case and other case related to this landmark judgment.

Not only Islam bashing, they took the opportunity in Lina Joy's case to attack the Judiciary and abuse 'Human Rights' as a shield against their systematic effort to antagonize the sensitivities of the majority.

Anon 8.00am,

I strongly agree with the principle to your argument and how you relate it for Bakaq Penarik Beca's take on the matter.

However, it is unfair to you to associate MM's views on this with Tun Dr. Mahathir. They are separate people, therefore they have separate take on the matter. I think this statement is below the belt.

elviza said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
kittykat46 said...

Rocky...you are a progressive thinker.
But I'm afraid I can see year by year Muslim opinion in this country is hardening, more and more insistent on every Muslim conforming to a rigid set of rules. How will it end ? God knows...

Anak Jawa Johor said...

Saudara Rocky, as i see it this Lina Joy episode has been hijacked by a small but noisy group of Islamophobes who wants to impose their version of religious freedom on the majority. I am not a Law expert mysely but from what i can gather from the Federal Court decision. It is not the end of the road for Lina Joy, she still has one more road to go and that is the Syariah Court to renounce Islam.

I am a Muslim and I do empathise with her predicament, BUT if only she had gone to the Syariah Courts 17 years ago and go thru the due process of syariah law, I am inclined to believe that she would be a Christian in spirit and in proper documents already by now. I have faith in Syariah Law, remember the case of the Malay lady Nyonya Tahir in Melaka she died as a Buddhist I believed and the Syariah court after due process and representations by her siblings who are non Muslims, declared that she did died a non-muslim.

Let us Malaysians cherish and value what we have in Malaysia. Open up our eyes a little bit and if you travel the length of Malaysia you will find many examples of religion being practised harmoniously among each other, huge statue of the sitting Buddha in Kota Bahru and not far away a mosque, Cathedrals from Penang to JB to Sabah. The huge statue of Lord Murugan in Batu Caves. Hey, we even have holidays celebrating the major religions of Islam, Buddhism, Hinduism and Christianity. On certain days of the year like Thaipusam and Wesak we are even allowed to make public procession celebrating our respective religions. So my dear friends out there is that not religious freedom being practised in Malaysia?

ahm said...

sad to hear many comments were made merely based on human right and logic only. only referance that sided on them was highlighted as basis. mm for example, should also check on other verses which explained the punishment for the said sin and similar.

for the muslims, murtad is a big sin, no to ways about it, and many know what is the punishment like.
lina is obviously committed a big sin to the almighty, yet she is propogandised as the hero and win sympathy while the almighty is seen as rigid and cruel. very wrong!, no religions would accept this.

i believe this is not for everyone to suggest solutions, especially to non muslim. as muslim we do not comment other religion affairs especially at public forum like this. thus, we expect other non muslims to respect that too. in malaysia we have ulamak and the experts (govt and non) here, trust them, they know what is right and wrong. safeguard your own religion and beliefs. let the muslim handle their problem. but the problem is when the muslim themselves have no faith to their religion teachings and ulamak as the guardian of the truth islam.

out of sudden the non muslim mula nak bercakap pasal hukum islam dan nak berlagak macam ulamak pulak, as is they are the only grouyp cencerned about human righat an islam is assumed as not humane.this is abot too far guys.

look guys,we are not talking about human law here, it is about the law of the almighty.

my sincere advise to those who is shallowed knowledge about islam keep sidelines (including myself). what do we know about halal, haram and hukum hakam. if still want to, then make sure you are qualified, kalau tidak buat tambah dosa kering sahaja.

may the almighty bless us all

Anonymous said...

What's the big deal?!

amir said...

I say, fuck Lina Joy! And fuck the decision!

Fuck all a you fuckers!

Fuck off and die!

AMLG said...

Masalah dengan Lina Joy ialah mengapa ia tidak boleh mematuhi keputusan mahkamah bahawa isu murtad beliau hendaklah di bawa ke Mahkamah syariah terlebih dahulu?

Saya fikir penulis mykmu.net ada pandangan yang jelas...

http://www.mykmu.net/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=5879&mode=flat&order=0&thold=-1

Anonymous said...

Dear All,

[Had your Lord willed, all the people on earth would have believed. So can you (Prophet) compel people to believe?] (Yunus 10: 99).

Hantu Gigi Jarang

kociriemann said...

That was also the time where alcoholic drinks can be advertised on TV. That was also the time when the results of "national lottery" broadcasted nationwide.

The life was much simpler. But the society was also much more corrupted!
in Islam we call those time as "zaman Jahiliyyah" or in english " Period of Ignorance".

I prefer to live in this period of time where people who wanted to leave Islam go for councelling. To make sure those who renounce Islam do it in their conscience or because of other external factors...financial, ignorance, etc.

eng said...

Why ask the non-muslim not to comment on this case? are they not Malaysian enough to be concerned?
or is this issue not affecting or will not affect ANY non-muslim at present and in future?
BTW, heard that Lina's partner is a non-muslim and he is still waiting for her religion change to get married.
Also, so many ppl been commenting about the particular group who shield behind human right or consitution to belittle this/that or challenge the faith of majority etc etc ...
Do you think they have no valid point to argue for ? or do you think the law/rules should still apply in this century in this country?
Things were right in the past doesn't mean it would be right in the future. Once, slavary was legal in law and at some point it was made illegal for e.g. (just an example, not trying to compare this case with slavery.)

Fung said...

AAB: Islam is not above Constitution.

Let's say Lina chooses to face the Syariah court and after persuasion or rehabilitation, whatever procedure there is, she insists on leaving Islam but Syariah court doesn't allow it. Now, can Lina initiate legal procedure against the government in the civil court that she has been denied a fundamental right to choose her own religion, as enshrined in the Constitution?
According to AAB's statement, she actually can do that and eventually win her case, yes?

Fung said...

Dear ahm,

If majority of Muslims think like you, then really, god bless Malaysia. You've missed the point completely. If according to Islam, Lina has committed a sin, then it is something between Lina and god.
The issue here is a legal one, about our supreme judges not upholding the highest laws in Malaysia, which is the Federal Constituion.
Get it?

zewt said...

i read kata tak nak's post on this and i accept his argument. maybe all of us here should go there and pay him a visit.

Anonymous said...

30 May 07 is a very sad day for Malaysians. The nation is proven to be more than 400 years backwards in time (if blogger A Voice's statement that the Syariah is that old is anything to go by!). Judiciary has failed miserably. Sadder still this verdict is for fellow Muslims. There must be millions of Lina Joys out there imprisoned by such antiquated beliefs, not daring even to breath a word. Fundamentals in religion are love, warmth, PEACE, understanding, RESPECT, forgiveness, MERCY. In this scenario however, none of that seem to exist.

Anonymous said...

mieze

hei..i agree with amir. lina joy can just fuck off!!
if she wanted to get marry just go ahead, why the fuss? free publicity ek?.. she is already fucking the guy rite, why bother?
And all the people discussing this issues trying to look like they are the rite one, just go and fuck with ur self..

AHIRUDIN ATTAN said...

thanks amlg & zewt. i have updated my posting to include their postings.

Portia said...

Dearest Rocky,

(you know who I am, just using a different name for this post)

Nicely said. Allow me to say:-

1) As a muslim - religion is between you and God alone. It is a matter of faith. Faith, cannot be forced. Faith must be instilled, respected and absolutely believed in.

2) As a part of our legal system - Sadly, I have to say, Richard Malanjum has a valid point in his arguments.

In my scarce legal experince, I am of the view that a full bench must be empanelled to hear such an important case.

Rules of law are enshirened in the Constitution. Constitution must be adhered to strictly without fear or pressure from any political moves or individual interests.

Constitution was challenged during the sacking of Tun Salleh Abas, are we doing it again?

3) As a normal human being - come on now! There are real problems out there such as welfare, education quality, minimum wage issue that needs serious attention. Lina Joy is getting too much attention for all its worth.

Alas, we always forget what matters dont we?

Chocobo said...

Lina Joy had lost in her appeal.

Even so, there is no human power that can force Lina Joy to return to her religion. To me she is still an apostate. Except, there is no recognition from the Law. This decision will not refrain who wants to become an apostate in discretion.

Remember the Hudaibiyah Covenant (between the Muslim and the Musyrik? The analogy is pretty much the same.

If people from the Musyrik (non-muslim) Camp come to Muslim Camp, they are to be returned. But if there are people from the Muslim camp who run to side on the Musyrik Camp, the Holy Prophet Muhammad SAW agreed that they should remain in the Musyrik tent. Many Sahabats (Prophet’s friends) however disagreed to the particular condition.

It is simple rationale. If a Muslim commits apostasy, he/she is already out of the religion and he/she is not needed to come back to Islam.

By Law, Lina Joy has failed to drop her religion status from her identity card.

It also implies that by Law, no apostate can drop the status of his/her previous religion from his/her identity card.

So, by Law, this will curb any Muslim’s intention to convert out in the open.

For the rest of the matter, this will not hinder any party who want to commit apostasy in discretion.

Translated from:

<< Nisah Haron Online

Anonymous said...

I thank God for a good person like Lina Joy. Be strong, sister.

Corgan Sow said...

"look guys,we are not talking about human law here, it is about the law of the almighty."

You're the one who doesn't get it. The reason why secular law must be above religious law is simply because everybody thinks their god and holy scripture is the Chosen One. And don't simply assume when non-Muslim comment on such issues like this we simply want to blasphemise your religion. Thats the sort of paranoia that i despise from fundies who intruded the Article 11 forum.

Imagine you're in Xtian theocracy and Lina Joy is vice-versa. I bet you don't want that **** to happen to you, don't yah?

Anonymous said...

as a Muslim and citizen of Malaysia and Islam as official religeon of this country, am binding and see the Syariah Law are more supreme then the Federal Constitution which are based on British Law. Most of this self proclaim solictors/judges seems know everything about Law, countering the verdict of the LEARNED JUDGE and with fraction knowledge on Islam they start bashing Islam as a whole, we Muslim never meddle with other religeon. So dont try to be championing in disguise of human right, dont go overboard, Malay/Muslim in Malaysia uasually have the attitude of 'tak apa lah, sabar' but there's a limit. Discuss to the Legal point not bashing Islam, got it! Damm

Sorry brader Rocky i had to let go my geram...

Hamzah said...

ahm says "i believe this is not for everyone to suggest solutions, especially to non muslim."

RPK wrote abt this a few months back - check www.malaysia-today.net

it is coz Islam has been made use and presented as a political tool that ALL Malaysians have the right to comment - just like a politician life.

Anonymous said...

Khas buat MM dan semua,

Di sertakan ringkasan keputusan Lina Joy . Panjang sikit tapi berbaloi kalau
kita faham isu yang sebenar supaya kita sedar dan boleh menyokong usaha yang
seterusnya kearah kebaikan anak cucu kita supaya kejadian yang sama tidak
berulang.

Kes ini bukan kes murtad sahaja tapi kes memertabatkan mahkamah syariah
seperti yang termaktub di dalam Constitution yang meletakan Malaysia sebagai
negara Islam. Apabila tok nenek orang Cina dan India menerima taraf
kerakyataan Malaysia semasa merdeka, mereka telah menerima hakikat bahawa
Malaysia sebagai negara Islam, yang majority nya beragama Islam dan sebelum
nya tanah tanah jajahan Melayu adalah di bawah kuasa Raja Raja Melayu yang
beragama Islam. Di dalam Constitution juga mengatakan agama lain daripada
Islam boleh dipraktik sesama mereka tetapi tidak boleh disebarkan. Masalah
timbul apabila orang orang bukan Islam mencampuri urusan agama kita di
tambah pula dengan sokongan orang Islam Liberal Sekular etc(kalau tidak
masakan Si Lina Joy boleh termakan dgn boyfriend Kristian nya dan dalam
affidivit nya menyatakan ia telah di kristian kan oleh seorang paderi !
Dalam affidivitnya Lina Joy juga meyatakan beliau tidak pernah memperaktik
Islam which is blatant lie as sebab Mak Bapak dia bole testify).



Ringkasan keputusan Lina Joy

1. Kes Lina Joy bukan cerita pasal murtad semata-mata macam orang awam
paham. Bila saya sembang, boleh kata ramai sebut pasal murtad sahaja. Kalau
lina joy menang, ramai orang boleh murtad senang-senang. Lepas tu isu lain
tak berapa diketengahkan. Isu murtad Lina Joy dan mana-mana orang yang ada
hasrat dan plan untuk murtad sebenarnya kesan yang datang selepas isu
pertama diperjelaskan iaitu status mahkamah syariah dan penghormatan kepada
bidangkuasa mahkamah.

2. Ada yang sebut Syariah Ct di negara ini pun bukannya Sya Ct yang
sebenarnya yang berbidangkuasa atas keseluruhan hukum Syariah, jenayah,
muamalat, munakahat, akhlak dan sebagainya. Itu betul tetapi kita bercakap
tentang kapasity yang ada di zaman ini di negara kita sekarang ini. Yang
mana lepas merdeka, Perlembagaan menjadi rujukan tertinggi dan dalam tu
diletakkan Islam berada di bawah bidangkuasa negeri2 dan setiap negeri boleh
tubuhkan Mahkamah Syariah yang boleh bicara dan putuskan beberapa perkara
sahaja yang disenaraikan. Senarai tu dipanggil Senarai Negeri yang sebut
pasal wasiat, zakat, nikah kahwin, kesan lepas cerai, hibah, jenayah yang
termasuk dalam kategori lawan hukum Islam seperti tak puasa, berkhalwat dan
lain-lain.

3. Tetapi tak ada senarai pasal ekonomi, kes jual beli cara Islam,
takaful islam, bon Islam, share Islam semua duduk dalam bidangkuasa mahkamah
Sivil. Termasuklah urusan jenayah duduk bawah Mahkamah Sivil. Jadi dengan
bidangkuasa yang kecil, Sya Ct dianggap Mahkamah Negeri dan tak setanding
(at par) dengan Mahkamah Sivil.

4. Apatah lagi kedudukan Peguam2 berbeza. Peguam Sivil ada Legal
Profession Act yang membenarkan penubuhan satu badan mengawasi dan jaga
kebajikan mereka dipanggil Bar Council. Tetapi Peguam Syarie tidak ada badan
dan tidak ada Akta sebab ia dikatakan berkaitan dengan negeri-negeri. Sebab
itu Peguam Sivil boleh masuk kesemua Mahkamah Sivil di seluruh negara tanpa
had selepas call to the bar. Tetapi peguam syarie beramal mengikut negeri
dan lesen yang diperolehi. Ada Peguam Syarie yang ada lesen di Wilayah
tetapi tiada lesen di Kelantan dll. Oleh kerana itu, PGSM ditubuhkan ke arah
mendesak penggubalan Akta Guaman Syarie demi kebajikan semua peguam Syarie
di negara ini. Tapi kita perlu terus bergerak dan masa yang sama tertakluk
kepada Perlembagaan.

5. Dalam Sivil, ada beberapa peringkat Mahkamah Sivil iaitu Mahkamah
Magistret, M/Sesyen, M/Tinggi, M/Rayuan dan M/Persek! utuan. Lepas tu ada
hukum binding precedent iaitu ikat mengikat. Keputusan Mahkamah Rayuan
megikat Mahkamah Tinggi ke bawah. Keputusan Mahkamah Persekutuan akan
mengikat semua Mahkamah dalam memutuskan isu dan kes yang hampir sama atau
sama.

6. Sebelum ni, kalau ada kes diputuskan di Mahkamah Syariah, orang
yang tak puas hati boleh pergi ke Mahkamah Sivil untuk merayu menyemak
keputusan Hakim Mahkamah Syariah. Katakan Ali bercerai dengan Minah dan
harta diputuskan 50:50 antara mereka. Anak diputuskan custody pada Emak
(Minah). Tetapi Ali tak puas hati boleh pergi ke Mahkamah Sivil, merayu dan
Mahkamah Sivil boleh buat keputusan lain menyebabkan keputusan Hakim
Mahkamah Syariah seoa! lah-olah dibuang dalam tong sampah, tidak ada harga
lagi.

7. Selepas perjuang orang2 terdahulu dari kita, mendesak Kerjaan dengan
political will mereka, masa Dr Mahadhir masa tu, Parlimen berjaya meminda
Artikel 121 mengenai kedudukan Mahkamah. Ditambah pindaan menjadi Artikel
121 (1A) iaitu keputusan Mahkamah Syariah tidak boleh diganggu gugat oleh
Mahkamah Sivil. Tetapi orang undang-undang ada yang pandai sangat dan
mencari jalan untuk mebuat tafsiran. Kerana Hakim boleh mentafsirkan dalam
penghakiman mereka dengan cara dan pendapat mereka.

8. Oleh itu apabila kes Lina Joy mula-mula pergi ke M/Tinggi. Hakim
Mahkamah Tinggi kata tak boleh buang istilah Islam sebelum dapat kebenaran
M/Syariah. M/Syariah ada bidangkuasa kepada semua urusan berkait dengan
keislaman dan hal-ehwal Islam. Tapi keputusan itu tak mengikat Mahkamah
lebih tinggi. Bila lina joy merayu lagi ke M/Rayuan, keputusannya tetap kata
M/Syariah kena putuskan dia bukan Islam baru boleh tukar istilah dalam IC.
Tapi masih tak selesai, sehingga dibawa ke Mahkamah tertinggi di Malaysia
iaitu Federal Court (M/Persekutuan) .

9. Apabila M/Persekutuan memutuskan semalam, ianya adalah kejayaan
kepada memartabatkan perundangan Syariah dan Mahkamah Syariah di negara ini.
Iaitu Mahkamah Sivil yang lebih rendah akan terikat dengan keputusan
semalam: Bahawa semua urusan keislaman, keluar masuk Islam, perkahwinan,
perceraian, adalah bidangkuasa Mahkamah Syariah.Mengesahkan Art 121 (1A).
Dengan itu sepatutnya tiada lagi kes boleh dibawa ke Mahkamh Sivil untuk
challenge isu yang sama atau hampir sama. Keputusan semalam sebenarnya
MENGIKTIRAF DAN MELETAKKAN BAHAWA SYARIAH COURT SETARA DENGAN M/SIVIL.

10. Kesan keputusan semalam membawa kepada perbincangan lain dan desakan
lain ke arah menambah baik dan pindaan kepada beberapa peruntukan dan
perlaksanaan Mahkamah Syariah.. Kepakaran Haki! m dan prasarana M/Syariah
dll. Peruntukan dalam Enakmen iaitu pihak2 yang boleh berurusan dengan
Mahkamah Syariah juga perlu ditambahbaik. ..Apabila satu pihak bukan Islam,
bolehkah masuk ke M/Syariah menjadi pihak yang bertikai kerana semua
Enakmen menyebut Enakmen ini terpakai kepada orang Islam sahaja yang
tinggal, bermastautin dalam negeri ....' Contohnya kes isteri masuk Islam,
suami tidak. Lelaki islam, wanita tidak. Bagaimana dengan masalah custody
anak, harta sepencarian suami isteri dll..Termasuklah pindaan kepada Seksyen
51 Law Reform Act. Kita juga perlu mendesak b/kuasa M/Syariah perlu ditambah
iaitu semua urusan ekonomi Islam perlu duduk di bawah M/Syariah kerana ia
melibatkan Islam dan urusan keislaman..Banyak lagi kerja kita dan JIM dan
ACCIN perlu ke arah itu.

11. Jika semlm berpihak kepada Lina Joy, ia umpama membuka floodgate
kepada penghinaan terhadap M/Syariah. M/Syariah tidak ada kedudukan dan
tidak akan dihormati. Orang bukan Islam dan orang murtad boleh menidakkan
langsung kedudukan M/Syariah dan kesannya yang lain seperti saudara baca
dalam pamphlet yang dikeluarkan oleh PEMBELA.



KENYATAAN AKHBAR

Persatuan Peguam Syarie Malaysia (PGSM) mengalu-alukan keputusan kes Lina
Joy yang diumumkan pada hari ini oleh Mahkamah Persekutuan di Putrajaya.

Keputusan tersebut memberi pengiktirafan kepada kredibiliti Mahkamah Syariah
dan Undang-Undang Islam. Mahkamah Sivil yang tertinggi di Negara (Mahkamah
Persekutuan) telah memutuskan bahawa penentuan berhubung dengan agama Islam
hendaklah dibuat oleh Mahkamah Syariah dan bukan Mahkamah Sivil. Keputusan
ini telah menunjukkan bahawa Mahkamah Sivil dan Mahkamah Syariah saling
lengkap melengkapi antara satu sama lain (complementing each others) dan
tidak bersaing antara satu sama lain (competing with each others).

Mahkamah Sivil dan Mahkamah Syariah masing-masing mempunyai bidangkuasanya
tersendiri mengikut undang-undang dan mereka tidak boleh saling menggugat
antara satu sama lain. Keadaan unik ini hendaklah di pelihara oleh setiap
masyarakat yang cintakan keamanan di Malaysia .

Keputusan ini telah mengelakkan keadaan kucar-kacir masyarakat khususnya
tatkala pihak berkuasa agama ingin melaksanakan undang-undang Islam
sebagaimana yang telah diperuntukkan kepada mereka.

Adalah diharapkan bahawa keputusan ini akan dapat menyelesaikan kemelut yang
sering melanda masyarakat Malaysia dan segala persoalan berhubung dengan
kedudukan mahkamah syariah dan agama Islam di sisi Perlembagaan Persekutuan
telah dimuktamadkan.

PGSM menggesa seluruh rakyat Malaysia menerima keputusan ini dengan hati
yang terbuka dan bersama-sama melihat masa depan Negara kita dengan aman
damai dan saling hormat menghormati antara satu sama lain.

Anonymous said...

SMS can also use as declearing devoice so why not make it easy for people so that they can wish to believe whatever faith they wish? If they don't want to be part of your religion you keep them also no use, better let them go because is their life and not yours. I only know Satan use force and never forgive, this is not and why not forgive and forget?

pak sakok said...

Fundamentals in religion are love, warmth, PEACE, understanding, RESPECT, forgiveness, MERCY. In this scenario however, none of that seem to exist.


need more be said? lesser said better. rocky, close this topic. enough damage has been done already

Satria Asia said...

Does the Lina Joy decision mean that the Syariah is more supreme than the Constitution?

Daily Nibbler said...

The song by Rod Stewart, "I don't want to talk about it" comes to my mind. Period.

Absorbed the spirited discussions/arguments all over the blog sphere. More comments will come, this time round from outside the country. This is because it touches on two major religions in the world and their closeness thereof, unfortunately.

Trashed said...

The example of Nyonya Tahir by anak jawa johor in an earlier comment should not be juxtaposed with the Lina Joy case.

The Syariah courts had a win-win situation by ruling that Nyonya Tahir was not a Muslim simply because she is already dead ! You can incarcerate a dead person, but I'm sure the other folks in the rehab centre would object ....

Also, there was no NRIC issues to amend and lastly, it is good PR for the Syariah Court in that they are seen to be amenable, even if it is a dead person.

It is the living human beings that they are "concerned" about.

If Islam says that there is no compulsion in religion, then why are there laws specifying detention time in the various states ? Are the man-made laws defying the holy word ?

khairul said...

salam sejahtera...

membalas tulisa chocobo berkaitan perjanjian hudaibiyah...

kalau benar kau tahu tentang perjanjian hidaibiyah tu,kena kau hanya ceritakan sebahagian sahaja... hanya memtik tentang islam untuk memburukkan islam.... jangan termakan dengan hasutan tipu daya orang seperti ini.... mempermainkan agama untuk kesenangan sendiri...

perjanjian hudaibiyah (seperti yang di tulis oleh chocobo) apa bila orang kafir quraisy datang ke madinah,dia hendaklah di pulangkan ke kaum quraisy (makkah),dan apa bila orang muslim madinah pulang ke makkah,dia boleh tinggal bersama dengan orang quraisy di makkah...

memang kalau di perhatikan dalam konteks ini islam nampak lemah,tapi ada sebab kenapa Rasulullah (selawat keatasnya) buat begini...

bukan seperti apa yang di tulis oleh chocobo,yang orang islam yang ingin murtad itu tidak perlu dipulangkan kepada kaum (camp?) muslimin madinah...

natijah dari perjanjian ini adalah, orang islam (bukan murtad,saya ulangi sekali lagi,bukan murtad) yang rindu pada kaum lekuarganya di makkah bole pulang dengan senang tanpa gangguan dari orang quraisy... dan boleh menetap di maakah tanpa perlu di pulangkan,yang dalam keadaan ini boleh digunakan oleh muslim2 tadi (sekali lagi bukan membawa maksud murtad ya saudara chocobo) untuk memberitahu tentang agama islam kepada sahabat dan kaum keluarga, satu cara yang lebih mudah untuk mendekati mereka2 yang tidak tahu tentang islam...dan dalam masa ini,tiada perperangan antara kaum muslimin madinah dan kaum quraisy makkah...yang mana membolehkan kaum muslimin menyebarkan islam ke bahagian yang lain tanpa gangguan dari kaum quraisy

kalau saudara chocobo terlampau bijak tentang sirah islam... sila terangkan apa kah kesan perjanjian hidaibiyah itu sendiri?

dan lanjutan dari perjanjian itu (yang mana musyrikin makkah tersalah langkah dan menyerang kaum muslimin) membawa kepada pembukaan kota mekah.... hari pembebasan mekah dari berhala2

satu saja pinta saya.... kalau kita jahil agama,jangan kita buat2 bijak untuk bercerita tentangnya,nanti hanya merosakkan kesucian agama,tidak kira agama kamu atau agama aku....

sekadar renungan... pahami konteks ayat terakhir dari surah-al kafirun
"untuk kamu agama kamu,untuk aku agama ku"

hormat orang lain baru orang hormat kita

The Lone Pine said...

Lina Joy
What an irony
What Joy can there be
But anger and dispair
Among those who share
And those that don't care
It's so unfair
That one person's affair
Is causing temper to flare
Calling for calm I won't dare
Though I fear for those I care
Because this fire is full of danger
It can burn beyond border
Of sanity and humanity
So play not with the fire
Of hate and ire
Let it be
Lose not our sanity
For the sake of one person
Should we risk our whole nation?
I pray not.

Handshake said...

Dalam apa hal jua sekalipun, kita harus bertindak dan berfikiran dari sudut ilmu.

Teliti betul-betul dari sudut ilmiah akan isu murtad. Apa benar orang murtad hukumannya bunuh? Adakah kesemua orang yang murtad itu hukumannya bunuh? Jika kita tidak tahu, bertanyalah dengan yang tahu.

Setahu saya (dan saya mungkin salah dan saya bersedia diperbetulkan dengan hujah, nas dan dalil), orang yang murtad, jika dia tidak mencaci agama Islam setelah dia murtad, kita tidak boleh menghukumnya apa-apa. Lagipun siapa kita untuk menentukan iman di hatinya? Apakah sudah tertutup pintu taubat untuk orang yang murtad? Apakah kesedaran dan hidayah itu mesti dipaksa? Tidak boleh tidak mesti terima sekarang tiada tolak ansur?Lihat kembali bagaimana berat sebelahnya perjanjian Hudaibiyah (buku sejarah sekolah menengah cuma, saya SPM agama Islam cuma agregat 5), bagaimana jika orang Islam murtad dibiarkan saja, tapi orang kafir Mekah yang memeluk Islam, harus dikembalikan ke Mekah (untuk dibantai dan disiksa oleh Kafir Mekah tentunya). Tapi Perjanjian Hudaibiyah ini telah menjadikan Islam kelihatan amat molek kepada orang lain kerana sikap toleransinya.

Sebab itu Islam ini, harus dipelajari dari tiga sudut, Tauhid, Fekah dan Tasawuf. Tasawuf mengajar kita Tuhan kita itu rupanya bukan Tuhan kita saja, tapi Tuhan sekalian alam. Sufi mengajar kita hidayah itu, iman itu, bukan boleh dipaksa atau ditelaah dan diberi sijil. Ianya datang secara tiba-tiba.

Tugas kita ialah menyedarkan orang, memberi ilmu, bab orang terima, orang sedar, itu adalah hak ALLAH. Orang tak terima, orang tak suka, kita tak perlu gusar dan khuatir.

Dan ALLAH lebih mengetahui. Dan ALLAH lebih mengetahui. Dan ALLAH lebih mengetahui.

p/s: kalau seronok sangat nak membunuh, 3 dari 4 Mazhab dalam Islam menghukum bunuh untuk orang yang tidak solat tiga waktu berturut-turut. Imam Syafie sahaja yang menghukum bunuh cuma kalau orang itu percaya solat tidak wajib.

Huuuu kalau dilaksana hukuman bunuh bagi yang tidak solat, habis lah orang Islam di Malaysia ini. Mahu 70% lenyap. Siapa nak mengundi UMNO atau Pas? Ha ha.

Randy Me said...

Aaaaah Amir,

I wish life is as simple as that. Whenever we have problem, we f--- ourselves to sleep!

Maybe you're right. We f--- ourselves to sleep.

We're too tired to think or fight. When we wake up the next day, hopefully we've forgotten why we f----- ourselves in the first place.

Malaysia f------ Boleh!

bacardi said...

Portia,

"Sadly,I have to say, Richard Malanjum has a valid point in his arguments."

Why, sadly?
Another thing - Do you not think that the other two learned judges had valid points as well?

And pray, tell me: do you not think apostasy is an important issue in Islam?

There are just too many bleeding heart liberals here who want to sound good and make popular statements, playing to the gallery.
The issue here is that Lina Joy did not get the NRD to drop the "Islam" on her IC.

Of course, that's because the NRD has not got any official confirmation that Lina is already a Christian because she did not go through the Shariah court to renounce Islam.

She was a Muslim and she was bound by the Shariah.
She chose not to follow what had been set for her when she was a Muslim.

Some people drew attention to the evil of the Shariah by reproducing the Melaka enactment.

She never proceeded to go through the Shariah so we cannot condemn the Shariah Court so easily.

Now, if she had gone, yes, she could have been denied her wish to renounce her religion and punished.
Or not.

If she could take the NRD to court and fight it out, she could do the same thing if the Shariah Court did what everyone predicted it would do.
She would have enough lawyers to tell her what to do.

Stop demonising Islam. Stop bashing Islam.

bergen said...

Which side are you on,bro?

intanbaiduri said...

I don't get it.
it's about Lina Joy not allowed to drop Islam from her IC.
The NRD did right not to simply comply to her wishes. God knows what will happen if the NRD can just comply to people's wishes.
Well, Lina Joy can be a Christian for all anyone cares. And she is already. And the Christians are probably making sure she does not return to Islam. And I hope we leave it at that.
Lina turned her back on islam and the Syariah by not informing the Syariah COurt about her decision
Listen, you Lina defenders, she was a Muslim and should have followed the law presrcibed for Muslims in such matters. Apostasy is no triviality. The Syariah is recognised under the Constitution. Malays are Muslims under the Constitution. Until that is changed, live with it. and deal with it.
So Lina, go and make things right. And if the Syariah court makes it difficult, then you get your lawyers to give them hell.
Now is the time for you Muslim liberals, Sisters-in-Islam etc to go out there to deal with the way apostates are procedurally treated, i.e rehabilitated.
You think you are smart, then educate the clerics so that they don't cause people and the Lina's of the world to hate Islam.
Lina has made it open season for non-Muslims and other pretenders of liberal Islam to criticise Muslims and Islam.
I think that's just testing the sentiments of Muslims.
So, cease and desist. The court decision is a court decision. It did not go your way, so therefore it sucks.
Don't push it. That said, I don't think Islam will suffer because of the Lina's around us. In fact, it's for the better.

Fung said...

Most commenters here only discuss about apostasy in Islam. Please, this is NOT ONLY a religious issue (and definitely NOT a racial one), but a MORE IMPORTANT one relating to our Constitution. The 2 supreme judges have failed to uphold the highest laws in Malaysia, ie the Federal Constitution. Why continue to harp on Islam? Religion is between man and god, period. Don't confuse religion with politics, as what has happened in this Lina Joy judgement. I would appeal to all people who understand the issue here to continue explaining.

prometheus bound said...

It is a bit difficult for someone who has lost faith in the religion to submit to a court that decide based on the very divine law that Lina Joy feel doesn't govern her.

Thus, Lina Joy's refusal to submit to the Shariah Court is understandable.

Sometime, one wonders about the fragility of the faith of Muslims in Malaysia. Throughout history, people have converted and renounced conversion and the faith is still there for a thousand years.

I suppose, this conversion case is close to home. It is a Malay (and a woman some more) formerly a Muslim throwing the gauntlet to the Muslim majority.

The Muslim majority ever so comfortable with laws in the Federal Costitution prohibiting proselytising to Muslims, laws in every State in the Federation acting like a safeguard measure against any of the ranks wanting to break out, comfortable with the idea that the Federal Government and the State Government spending billions of Ringgit in trying to spread and protect the faith, that every parents will put their children as young as 6 to religious classes... now suddenly faced with one of the ranks wanting to break out. It is unfathomable to many of them..but why ? The Muslims in Malaysia were thought (or should I say drilled) to believe that their religion is beautiful and perfect, oblivious to the fact that every adherent of every religion in the world claims theirs to be all that as well. I remember Arsene Wenger once said "every man thinks their wife is the prettiest".

In Malaysia, majority of Muslims practically "inherit" religion from their parents, accepting it to be the truth, without going through the pains of discovering. Any breaking in the ranks were done quietly without much fanfare, either practicing the new religion in private or moving out of the country. Suddenly, a woman issued a challenge, wanting to convert and do it publicly and refuse to move out of the country. It became too much to accept.

The fear strikes close to the heart. It could happen to any one of them or to their loved ones. The clarion call is sounded that the religion is under threat and the duty is for all Muslims to defend the faith. The vanity of such call is lost to the majority, the irony of the statement flies across their face. Fear is a terrible ally.

And the story has just begun to unfold. It is in the news today that another Muslim has filed an application in the Civil Court (where else).

nstman said...

Lina, continue your struggle. The nation is with you all the way. Never surrender.

Silent Me Not AUthor 1 said...

i felt sorry reading half the comments here. Why bother with Malaysia anymore, with my fellow countrymen yelling "Kafir" to me anyway. Why Muslims like to hide behind the pretense of "don't comment about my religion when i don't comment about yours". If they infringe on the rights of others while imposing their own spiritual rules, then, who's right is it? Ultimately, it proves something, our judges have decided that, FOR THEM, it's MUSLIM first, MALAYSIAN second. Sad day for the rest of us.

Anonymous said...

If Lina JOy were to leave Christianity tomorrow, you think the church will persecute her?

Anonymous said...

eng said...

Things were right in the past doesn't mean it would be right in the future. Once, slavary was legal in law and at some point it was made illegal for e.g. (just an example, not trying to compare this case with slavery.)

=================================

what the f.ck u talking about?

Anonymous said...

Memang keputusan kes Lina Joy tidak ada kaitan langsung dengan hidup saya di Malaysia seharian sekarang. Saya tidak menganut agama Islam dan berkeyakinan bahawa saya tidak akan menganut agama tersebut pada masa yang akan datang.

Akan tetapi keputusan tersebut amat membimbangkan saya kerana implikasi bahawa mahkamah dan hakim di Malaysia sudah tidak membuat keputusan berdasarkan perlembagaan Malaysia tetapi berdasarkan kerpercayaan agama peribadi masing-masing terutamanya agama Islam.

Ini merupakan kes yang terbaru di antara kes-kes yang semakin banyak, termasuk kes-kes di mana orang yang beragama Hindu dirujuk ke Mahkamah Syariah untuk menuntut keadilan.

Keyakinan saya terhadap sistem mahkamah di Malaysia terhakis dengan keputusan-keputusan sebergini yang secara terang-terang menafikan proses menuntut keadilan kepada penganut agama lain di Malaysia.

Walaupun saya juga kurang senang dengan segelintir extremis yang keterlaluan dalam menghentam Islam, tindakan mereka tidak seharusnya dijadikan alasan untuk menganiaya orang-orang bukan islam yang ingin hidup aman damai bersama orang-orang islam di Malaysia.

Saya khuatir bahawa keadaan ini mungkin bertambah buruk lagi di masa hadapan dan menjejaskan masa depan anak-anak saya di mana mereka terpaksa menghadapi hidup di Malaysia yang tidak lagi menjamin hak asasi mereka sebagai rakyat Malaysia. Ini memang mebimbangkan kerana bilangan orang-orang islam hanya akan meningkat di Malaysia dan keadaan sekarang menunjukkan bahawa toleransi mereka terhadap orang-orang lain semakin berkurangan.

Anonymous said...

1. I really don't care if we had one less Muslim in the world. Theres plenty of them, everywhere. Including me. Lina Joy can go worship whatever she fancies. One less Muslim could not compare an entire herd of Muslim converts to come, Im proud to say! Like it or not Islam is the fastest growing religeon in the world.

2. Muslims and Christians alike, WE ARE ALL VICTIMS OF THIS REALLY STUPID ISSUE. Semua orang kena tipu, padan muka. Now she has garnered the attention from EVERYONE by pointing out ONLY ONE of the many loopholes in our system.

3. Win or lose the appeal, Lina will still be in Joy, Thanks to all the domestic antagonists and sympathiesers, Lina stands to make a fortune from local and international "supporters". Not to mention that she, in some sense is being idolised.

4. She's not the first Muslim apostate here in Malaysia, and won't be the last. So whats all this fuss? I know Malay people who have even converted to Judaism. But they did the smarter thing, reside overseas.

5. If the Indonasian's, Bangladeshi's and Filipina's can seek refuge in other "richer" countries, (only a select few do0 but generally why cant we Malaysians do the same? Dah tau tempat ni macam sial, chow jela! Apa susah? People migrate for a better life what... its nothing new. Lack of money is not an excuse, orang lain sanggup gadai nyawa, naik sampan datang negara kita!

6. Legal issue? Come On Man! Seriously, who respects the law here in Malaysia? Simple traffic laws also cannot obey, Lenjan sini lenjan sana, pastu buat muka pundek,
futhurmore Pirated DVD's, Drug Trafficking, Illegal Immigrants, Triads, Corruption. Its all ILLEGAL, but people do it anyway.

7. Lina Joy must have had a very western upbringing, I say that because I guess she was not exposed to the term 'kahwin Lari'.

8. I hate this "Being Malaysian or Bangsa Malaysia" pre-text. Its rubbish. Everyone has their bias no matter what race you are, you would eventually want yours to prevail. Im not fooled by the act of righteousness to fulfil a hidden cause. Kecoh la korang!

Anonymous said...

Now PAS said want to make apostacy a crime in FT..sooner will be in the whole country, happy?

Who is playing God?

adik said...

bro rocky

I got the links below from someone who posted them at shar101.

Good read.

http://www.wanzafran.com/2007/lina-joy-the-decision-counsels-explanation/

http://www.wanzafran.com/2007/lina-joy-the-decision/

Anonymous said...

1) lina joy has commited the biggest sin by rejecting islam and embracing christianity?
does this also mean all those muslim converts have also sinned big time for rejecting their own religion and embracing islam.

2) i met an indonesian muslim man recently. he works in a pig farm.
i asked him if it was not haram to do anything with pigs..he said working in the pig farm is what is putting food on the table for him and his family of five...he said it was better than getting involved in corrupt practices which is happening in rampantly in malaysia.
"Malaysian say eating pork is harm, drinking hard drinks is haram but they are heavily inviolved in corruption. it is th esame."
i was tongue tied...

cheers

anon said...

Anonymous 4.08pm


Woi, you wanna bash Islam huh!

Now dont you bullshit with that cock-and-bull story!!!

Chocobo said...

Khairul,

Saya cuma terjemahkan teks itu dari tulisan Saudari Nisah Haron dari http://annyss.blogspot.com

Saya dapati kamu tak faham mengapa artikel itu di situ dan tidak faham apa maksud artikel itu. Di sini, orang-orang bukan islam sedang menhentam dam mempersoalkan Islam dan saya meletakkan arttikel Nisah Haron di situ untuk merungkaikan dan dengan niat mengehentikan hentaman terhadap agama Islam.

Yang patut kamu persoalkan ialah semua orang bukan Islam yang menentang dan menghentam Islam, bukannya saya yang sedang cuba untuk menghentikan tanggapan negatif orang Islam terhadap agama saya.

Bagaimanapun, bukan sekali dua saya bertemu orang seperti kamu, yang begitu cepat membuat kesimpulan yang seseorang itu jahil. Kerana kamu begitu pandai agama mengapa kamu tidak selamatkan aqidah Lina Joy sebelum dia tersesat? Umat Islam harus bersatu bukan mencari salah sesama saudara seagama dan saya cadangkan sebelum kamu membuat kesimpulan melulu, belajar dahulu Bahasa Inggeris untuk mengetahui yang artikel tersebut cuma satu terjemahan saya dari Nisah Haron Online, yang Qiyas nya saya kira amat sesuai rasionalnya untuk kita tidak bersikap melulu.

Islam itu mudah dan jangan kamu cuba memberatkannya.

Anak Jawa Johor said...

OK Lina Joy you and your brethrens had your fun day in the sun. I mean, imagine a saudara Anonymous even managed to speak to a Muslim Indonesian Pig Farmer about you and actually twisted it to relate corruption with Malays albeit in his/her raunchy dreams. I am surprised he/she did not mention that he/she made love with the indonesian(he/she) in the pig pen, I mean seriously this has become a sick nightmare.

Look, Lina Joy, take my advise you've already caused your Muslim mother and those dear to you so much grief. If you do not want to submit to the Syariah Court to renounce Islam. Then fine, please do the majority of Malaysians a favour and simply leave this country. The religious and racial harmony of this country is more dear to us than your right to strike Islam from your IC.

Goodbye Lina Joy and God Speed.

khairul said...

saudara chocobo,maafkan saya kalau kata2 saya sebelum ini agak kasar,mungkin perasaan panas terhadap mereka2 yang bukan islam cuba berlaku bijak tentang islam,

saya rasa terpanggil bila terlihat tentang perjanjian hudaibiyah tu dan konteksanya,lalu saya ajak kita tengok sampai kisah pembukaan kota mekah,bukan hanya setrakat perjanjian hudaibiyah itu sahaja....

dam dalam kes perjanjian hudaibiyah itu sendiri,orang islam yang pergi ke mekah bukan semuanya yang ingin kembali ke paganisme,tetapi ada juga yang mempunyai sanak saudara di mekah,yang dalam masa yang sama mereka boleh menceritakan tentang islam pada sanak saudara mereka...

hal ini ternyata amat jauh dari kes lina joy spt yg saudara perkatakan dlm komen pertama yang berbunyi"It is simple rationale. If a Muslim commits apostasy, he/she is already out of the religion and he/she is not needed to come back to Islam."

matlamat kita sama,mempertahan islam, cuma konteks perjanjian hidaibiyah itu tidak kena dalam kes ini

saya mengaku saya juga kurang ilmu agama,tapi belajar itu dari saat kita di lahirkan hingga ke akhir hayat....

kes lina joy itu sendiri adalah cubaan untuk membelakangkan perlembagaan negara dengan merujuk kes itu ke mahkamah sivil,bukannya mahkamah syariah.....

maafkan sya sekali lagi kalau kata2 saya menyakiti hai seisapa...

islam itu mudah,tapi jangan sampai terlalu mengambil ringan tentangnya

David BC Tan said...

i agree. it's not about leaving islam, but the bigger picture of fundamental rights and freedom of conscience. of course it also includes questions about the federal constitution and whether lina's verdict is one more sign of denigration of its authority...

alliedmartster said...

anak jawa johor,

You do have a point, where else would you find Buddhist, Christian, and HIndu holidays, but in Malaysia. However, it is just lip service.

But you must have been sleeping, because, look around you and you will find that 'others' are being subjected to unnecessary road blocks.
Though our constitution guarantees the freedom to practice our own.
In our church, the catholic church, we call this subtle religious persecution. Don't believe me? Every Saturday, and Sunday, when we have our mass, in the Church of Divine Mercy, SHah Alam, we have to go to this Industrial area, where approval was finally given to us to build our church after 17 years of application and redrafting of our church plans. Our original site where the church was initially approved was retracted for being too close to the State mosque in Shah Alam (that was not told to us, but we got wind of this much later). In USJ, we have to make use of a private school hall for our sunday services, because the local council will not approve our church in USJ. (there are at least 4 mosques here in USJ & Subang).
If Malaysia truly believes in this multi racial and cultural freedom, why then are these roadblocks put in place?

I have friends of all religions and race, some of them whom I now meet weekly, they do not treat me any differently, and I of them, yet we have been dealt with this kind of treatment from our very own government that we have elected.

Anonymous said...

Thers's no god but God! May God guide you in your journey Lina Joy!

Salam
Hantu Gigi Jarang

Elly said...

Hmm...I noticed that so many people here complained about the lack of human rights in Malaysia following this Lina Joy case. Well, do they think that only Malaysia has no human rights whatsoever? How about in France and Turkey, where Muslim women can't even wear headscarves (at their own choice) in certain places? Isn't that a breach of human rights too?

C'mon-lah, this is Malaysia - a country which is simply unique in terms of its historical and political background - hence the reason why there are equally unique laws here that you simply can't find in any other parts of the world.

So, if you want to live in a place that fits into your desired lifestyle - and think Malaysia simply sucks in this regard - then why are you still here? It just shows that despite all these brouhaha on "no human rights, lots of corruption, bla, bla,bla" this country still has A LOT to offer to its citizens (and non-citizens as well).

And to a particular anynomous person who said in his/her comment that many Muslims in the country have been "drilled to think that Islam is the most beautiful and perfect religion" in the world, let me just say that I only began to appreciate my faith (Islam) whole-heartedly after studying Christianity, Hinduism and Buddhism back in my university in the US. Yes sir/maam, I PERSONALLY do find Islam as the most beautiful (and straightforward) religion in the world. Yup, I fully realise that everybody thinks THEIR religion is the best/most perfect/most beautiful/etc, but if you don't even know a single bit about other people's faith, DON'T even think about commenting on it! Hence, before you start babbling on other people's religion, please study it deeply first.

To Lina Joy, I pray that God's love will always be with you.

forest said...

ALl those who ask Lina Joy to leave the country don't realize that this is her country too. Furthermore, what are they doing to tell those who can't leave the country? Just dissapear of the face of the earth?

Second, it's amazing that in the midst of scolding non-Muslims not to misunderstand Islam, many Muslims here have issued threats, coercive and violent language as well as warnings not to talk about Islam. It is people like you who are incriminating Islam and not the non-Muslims who simply call it as they see it.

anak jawa johor said...

Saudara Alliedmartster, I sympathise with your predicament but if you ask me why there are so called road blocks to set up your church, your local authorithies are the best people to answer.Instead of sitting on your fat arse and accusing other people of sleeping or being biased and speculating or listening to the wind I strongly advise that you meet with your local councillor preferably a non muslim, to actually find out what happened to your church application.

However, I would think that if there are more mosques than churches or Hindu temples in an area, normally the numbers are in proportion to the population in that particular area that would have more muslims than the followers of other religions.

By the way I have many friends of other races and religions also and we go a long way back since secondary school you know. And we do go for Teh Tarik once in a while at Danga Bay or Singgah selalu in JB, Lina Joy or no Lina Joy.

Nur Islam said...

prometheus bound,

i will die for my religion.

Chocobo said...

Is this really her country, when she doesn't understand the people's sensitivity and even dignity? Stop whining, you Lina Joy supporters and find a better thing to do. Malaysia is not exclusively Lina Joy's country that the Constitution needs amendment to suit her appeal alone. Unless I see some changes in the world where Muslims girls in France can wear their headscarf freely in public school and until Palestinians are free, this silly fracas is just useless. Human rights are not even given wholly in the west. The court has made its decision, if she is unhappy, get out of this country. No true Malaysian citizen should be celebrating by seeing this much pandemonium in which she herself causes, dammit.

Anonymous said...

forest said...

ALl those who ask Lina Joy to leave the country don't realize that this is her country too.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++


Come on dont be naive.

Not to worry and dont be naive, Lina Joy will be welcomed by countries in te West, this poor former Muslim girl who is now a Christian.

I am sure she will have many organ-nisatiosn willing to sponsor her & resettle her abroad.

You are right Chocobo, "Malaysia is not exclusively Lina Joy's country that the Constitution needs amendment to suit her appeal alone"

Anonymous said...

Rocky Bro,

Ingat lagi peribahasa minyak dan air tak akan bercampur?

Muslim dengan pendirian mereka berkenaan isu murtad kerana mereka tahu hukum seorang Islam yang murtad. Mereka juga tahu apakah kesannya dan hukumnya pada masyarakat Islam sekeliling sekiranya isu murtad ini tidak dicegah dan ditangani. Apakah hukumnya orang yang murtad selepas meninggal dunia atau lebih baik lagi di panggil "mati" setelah masuk ke kubur. Bagaimankah rupa keadaan mereka semasa di padang mashyar nanti.

Bagi mereka yang tidak mencegah kejadian murtad ini iaitu masyarakat yang ada di sekeliling Lina Joy, apakah yang akan disoal selepas hayat tidak dikandung badan lagi. Apakah hukumnya di atas masyarakat ini?

Ini isu agama bagi mereka yang beragama Islam dan kalau boleh ada bijak pandai sekelian yang boleh tolong ulaskan?

Bukan Islam yang "ignorant" pula berkenaan ajaran Islam (memang tidak perlu ambil tahu kerana mereka bukan Islam) dengan pendirian mereka berkenaan hak asasi manusia dan berbagai lagi hujah-hujah untuk menegakkan hak kemanusian di Malaysia kita ini. Ini isu civil bagi bukan Islam.

Kalau nak berbahas, sampai kiamat pun tak habis...

Sekali lagi Rocky Bro! minyak dan air tak akan bercampur.....

Kepada Lina Joy,

Masyarakat yang beragama Islam telah menyatakan pendirian mereka. Dan, mereka yang bukan Islam pun telah membahasakan isu ini dengan pelbagai hujah.

Ian Teh said...

Recklessly ignoring the Constitution - the Rule of Law - is, in my books, fanaticism. So, unless someone like you speak out against it, you are in some ways, responsible for this otherwise inevitable slide Malaysia is taking.

Thamyras said...

And what is in your books is not in everyone's books. So, this is inevitable, eh? What makes you think if you speak out things will change since it's inevitable either way?

It prolongs the inevitable, maybe. But what's the point (of prolonging the inevitable)?

Simon Wee said...

Lina Joy's Forum

Nothing unsaid was said at last night forum:"Malaysia, After Lina Joy: A Dialogue Lina Joy"

However I am happy to note that it was one of the rare occasion where the audience was well represented by all the races.

The discerning sharp division of opinion between our Malay brothers/sisters and the non-moslem among the audience, pervaded the atmosphere at the Hotel Armada.

The Malays, quoting liberally from the Koran, maintained that Islam came as a package. There are procedures for entering and there are procedures for leaving.

The non-moslem on their part emphasized the fundemantal rights as enshrine in the constitution. For them the decision on Lina Joy is a violation of human rights.

There were a couple of Malays, like the 3 moslem speakers on the panel, maintaining a middle ground calling for healthy dialogue to tackle the problem.

One Malay even went to the extend of saying that the Shariah requirement, was only applicable in the High Court and the Court of Appeal. According to her the Federal Court had jurisdiction. As such she said the Federal Court decision was wrong.

The Muslim Organizations in Defence of Islam took the opportunity at the Forum to distribute their statement on the case. It advised that the decision should not be seen as a victory for Muslims and a loss for non-Muslims in Malaysia. It maintained that the decision should instead be seen as a rejection of an attempt to deconstruct and radically revamp the current formula.

The DAP through panel speaker Lim Kit Siang renewed its call for secular state status for Malaysia. He said a secular state should not be seen as against Islam but one that transcended religion to ensure Malaysia’s future.

Another panel speaker Lim Guan Eng described Lina Joy’s decision as one that had denied the individual a right guaranteed under the Constitution such as a right to freedom of conscience and choice of religion.

Ambiga Sreenevasan, Malaysia Bar Council President expressed her pessimism the protection of these fundamental rights following Lina Joy’s decision, however, on legal grounds.

The question of whether the decision was political, religious or legal in substance, was not directly tackled. Muslim alluded it as religious while the non-muslim implied it was political.

Ms Ambiga, on her part, maintained that it was a legal issue hijacked by the politicians. In other words politicians meddling in a legal issue, and politicians meddling in religious issue and thus causing problems to Malaysians.

However in the Malaysian context, it is obvious that such meddling is a manifestation of Malay phobia of the erosion of their political dominance in the country. They not only fear losing their numbers out of Islam but also fear of onslaught of other Muslim denominations such as Shitism and other “deviationist” sects.

“Healthy dialogue” as advocated by Tan Sri Khalid Ibrahim, PKR Secretary-General, should address this issue otherwise we can talk until the cows come home…

safia tajul alam said...

Why are so many non-muslim comment on this subject of Lina Joy?

Sejak bila kebebasan beragama mereka-mereka ini(the non muslim) di ganggu oleh kerajaan Malaysia.

Lina Joy nak convert atau dah sekian lama jadi kristian? Biarkanlah Lina dengan dunianya.

Kenapa banyak sangat non-muslim yang concern sangat pasal kes Lina ni?ada udang disebalik batulah tu apa lagi kan?

Sibuknya bercakap tak adil sana dan tak adil sini...Banyak hati yang terluka dengan pelbagai caci-maki kepada agama Islam.
Hanya semata-mata kerana seorang Lina?
Saya secara peribadi boleh terima jika melayu itu bukan Islam,Islam bukan agama untuk orang melayu sahaja...Kepada orang melayu Islam saya nasihatkan terimalah hakikat ini-kelak akan ada melayu kristian,melayu hindu,melayu buddha.Namun bagi diri saya sendiri saya akan hidup dan mati-insyallah sebagai seorang yang mentauhidkan Allah s.a.w.

Namun-melancarkan jihad untuk Lina Joy?
Mungkin tidak-itu kerja parti PAS kot...
Jihadlah untuk memperbaiki akidah diri sendiri,siapa yang mengenal diri maka mengenal Tuhannya.
Hayatilah Islam dan kenal hakikatnya,
Kepada all non-muslim yang sibuk memberi komen negatif tu pandanglah balik pada apa yang ada dalam hati-hati kamu itu,niat dan agenda apa yang tersembunyi didalamnya?!

ZezzY said...

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